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Cyrus
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Joined: 31 May 2005
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Location: Canada
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 Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:27 am Post subject: BSNES Blur |
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Once upon a time on a forgotten OS using a forgotten version of ZSNES I had ZSNES set to use 2xSaI and gave the ideal look (for me) out of all the settings available. I assume this look was achievable under Windows 98 and XP. I've been using Vista 64 for quite a long time now and when I use those same settings it quite simply looks like crap.
Recently I decided to try out BSNES to see how far along it's come and I noticed it has an option called 'Smooth Video Output' which looks very much like ZSNES' interpolation filter. When combined with 2xSaI it gives that appearance which I wanted to use.
Here is a pic:
So I'm wondering if someone can explain to me what this smoothing option in BSNES is exactly and why ZSNES no longer gets that look in Vista? |
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byuu
bsnes Developer
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I can do that.
There's both hardware and software filters involved. Software is 2xSaI, and is what stretches the 256x224 input to 512x448. After that, you have to fit it to your output window, say 1024x768. This is where the hardware filter comes in.
There are two types of hardware filters: pixellated (point) and smooth (linear). What you want is smooth, but what ZSNES is giving you is pixellated.
ZSNES uses DirectDraw to render video. DirectDraw doesn't let you choose whether to use point or linear. It seems like up to Windows XP it always used smooth, but many drivers, including yours, use point as of Vista and later. Don't ask me why they changed it, and no, it's not a setting you can control.
bsnes uses Direct3D and OpenGL, which let you choose whether to use point or linear. Hence the "Smooth video output" option.
No workaround, sadly. |
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Cyrus
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| byuu wrote: | Yeah, I can do that.
There's both hardware and software filters involved. Software is 2xSaI, and is what stretches the 256x224 input to 512x448. After that, you have to fit it to your output window, say 1024x768. This is where the hardware filter comes in.
There are two types of hardware filters: pixellated (point) and smooth (linear). What you want is smooth, but what ZSNES is giving you is pixellated.
ZSNES uses DirectDraw to render video. DirectDraw doesn't let you choose whether to use point or linear. It seems like up to Windows XP it always used smooth, but many drivers, including yours, use point as of Vista and later. Don't ask me why they changed it, and no, it's not a setting you can control.
bsnes uses Direct3D and OpenGL, which let you choose whether to use point or linear. Hence the "Smooth video output" option.
No workaround, sadly. |
Thanks for the explanation.
While I'm at it, rather than start a new thread I might as well ask about one more thing about the appearance. The default aspect ratio for SNES games seems to be 8:7 and the emulators have the option to stretch them out to 4:3. What is the proper ratio supposed to be? As in was the 8:7 made the way it was to look proper when stretched to 4:3? Or is the option to stretch it to 4:3 is just there in emulators to simulate TVs, meaning TVs ruined the proper look? Wow I worded that awkwardly. |
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Gil_Hamilton
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Joined: 12 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| Cyrus wrote: |
Or is the option to stretch it to 4:3 is just there in emulators to simulate TVs, meaning TVs ruined the proper look? |
You've really answered your own question there.
Do you REALLY think the games were designed for you to stick your finger in a socket and read bits straight off of RAM?
Or were they designed to be displayed on a TV?
Spoilers: They were designed to be viewed on a TV. Stretching to 4:3 is The Right Way To Do Things.
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<MKendora> PISS ON THE WHOLE FUCKING SNES SCENE.
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Johan_H
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:10 am Post subject: |
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Well, PAL TV's ruined 'the proper look' alright.
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Cyrus
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Gil_Hamilton wrote: |
You've really answered your own question there.
Do you REALLY think the games were designed for you to stick your finger in a socket and read bits straight off of RAM?
Or were they designed to be displayed on a TV?
Spoilers: They were designed to be viewed on a TV. Stretching to 4:3 is The Right Way To Do Things. |
Well they don't look designed to be viewed at 4:3 because things seem to be out of proportion at 4:3. Like the portals in CT are ovals at 4:3 but perfect circles at 8:7. Seems more like they said "Fuck it, no one will notice that it's stretched out a bit". |
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Johan_H
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Cyrus wrote: | | Well they don't look designed to be viewed at 4:3 because things seem to be out of proportion at 4:3. Like the portals in CT are ovals at 4:3 but perfect circles at 8:7. Seems more like they said "Fuck it, no one will notice that it's stretched out a bit". |
On the other hand; do you really think they did not intend for the moon to be round?
You're probably just too used to the wrong ratio.
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Cyrus
Inmate
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| Johan_H wrote: | | Cyrus wrote: | | Well they don't look designed to be viewed at 4:3 because things seem to be out of proportion at 4:3. Like the portals in CT are ovals at 4:3 but perfect circles at 8:7. Seems more like they said "Fuck it, no one will notice that it's stretched out a bit". |
On the other hand; do you really think they did not intend for the moon to be round?
You're probably just too used to the wrong ratio. |
Lol, I never even noticed that, I just loaded up stuff so anything I've seen recently would be at the start of the game. But as for an actual answer, who knows, I wouldn't put it past them to design things without proper proportions in mind. I probably am just used to the wrong ratio. |
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Gil_Hamilton
The Arm
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2826
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Cyrus wrote: | | Gil_Hamilton wrote: |
You've really answered your own question there.
Do you REALLY think the games were designed for you to stick your finger in a socket and read bits straight off of RAM?
Or were they designed to be displayed on a TV?
Spoilers: They were designed to be viewed on a TV. Stretching to 4:3 is The Right Way To Do Things. |
Well they don't look designed to be viewed at 4:3 because things seem to be out of proportion at 4:3. Like the portals in CT are ovals at 4:3 but perfect circles at 8:7. Seems more like they said "Fuck it, no one will notice that it's stretched out a bit". |
I'mma have to fire CT up again...
*does so*
Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle-in-law.... you're right, they AREN'T circular!
My bet is it was a considered sacrifice. Treating the pixels as square makes the opening/closing animation far easier to draw/calculate(depending on how they generate the effect).
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<MKendora> PISS ON THEM.
<MKendora> PISS ON THE WHOLE FUCKING SNES SCENE.
<MKendora> quote me on that. |
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MARIO CHIP 1
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Joined: 22 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| It's the same with Super Metroid. The morph ball is just a 16x16 square sprite so it looks round with square pixels, but the planets in the intro/ending sequence are made to be circular in the proper 4:3 aspect ratio. |
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byuu
bsnes Developer
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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It doesn't really matter much comparing individual sprites.
Some developers probably designed with square pixels in mind, while others took the aspect ratio into account. Maybe they did the former and noticed the problem only on gigantic images like a fullscreen moon graphic. We can't know how the original artists intended things to look.
But what we do know is how it looked to 99.9% of people actually playing SNES games in the 90s, and that's what correct aspect ratio does ;) |
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grinvader
ZSNES Shake Shake Prinny
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 16777215
Location: PAL50, dood !
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Gil_Hamilton wrote: | | Do you REALLY think the games were designed for you to stick your finger in a socket and read bits straight off of RAM? |
gzzzzzzzzzzzzt
| byuu wrote: | | But what we do know is how it looked to 99.9% of people actually playing SNES games in the 90s, and that's what correct aspect ratio does ;) |
Hey, are you insinuating that PAL50 doods represented 0.1% of the people actually playing SNES games in the 90s ?
Cause that's a nice one.
If by nice you mean raeg.
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Johan_H
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| grinvader wrote: | | byuu wrote: | | But what we do know is how it looked to 99.9% of people actually playing SNES games in the 90s, and that's what correct aspect ratio does ;) |
Hey, are you insinuating that PAL50 doods represented 0.1% of the people actually playing SNES games in the 90s ? |
Obviously byuu doesn't count Europeans and Australians as people!
byuu, you racist! >:U
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byuu
bsnes Developer
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Huh? Correct aspect ratio takes the current TV region into account.
PAL users get even wider stretched images, along with the extra scanlines that are almost always black. |
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Gil_Hamilton
The Arm
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2826
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| grinvader wrote: | | byuu wrote: | But what we do know is how it looked to 99.9% of people actually playing SNES games in the 90s, and that's what correct aspect ratio does  |
Hey, are you insinuating that PAL50 doods represented 0.1% of the people actually playing SNES games in the 90s ?
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PAL doesn't exist. Stop tormenting me with your filthy lies of inferior TVs that flicker!
_________________
<MKendora> PISS ON THEM.
<MKendora> PISS ON THE WHOLE FUCKING SNES SCENE.
<MKendora> quote me on that. |
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grinvader
ZSNES Shake Shake Prinny
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 16777215
Location: PAL50, dood !
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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but our colours didn't change while scrolling horizontally lawl
oh yeah i just saw an ad for a stupid expensive 600Hz plasma screen
yay for blast processing
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皆黙って俺について来い！！
| Code: | | <grinvader> static const struct { const char *const name; void *const ptr; } const lbl24[] |
Pantheon: Gideon Zhi | CaitSith2 | Nach |
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Johan_H
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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PAL60 ftw
Though I hear people say the colors are wrong or whatever, I never noticed anything.
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Cyrus
Inmate
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 1502
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| grinvader wrote: | but our colours didn't change while scrolling horizontally lawl
oh yeah i just saw an ad for a stupid expensive 600Hz plasma screen
yay for blast processing |
I feel old for getting that.
Okay, so the final conclusion is that the developers fucked up and there is no proper ratio, huzzah. |
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creaothceann
Seen it all
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 2841
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Proper ratio is 4:3.
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vSNES
MKV to AVI |
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blackmyst
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Posts: 1814
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Ughhhh not this shit again.
I bet there are still goofballs out there that insist on playing CPS2 games in the "original" 1.71:1 ratio, as well.
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Hard Work Often Pays Off After Time, but Laziness Always Pays Off Now. |
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odditude
Official tech support dood
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 1090
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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you mean psylocke isn't supposed to be short and fat? 
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grinvader
ZSNES Shake Shake Prinny
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 16777215
Location: PAL50, dood !
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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only if it is bbwpsylocke
also the word is 'plump'
_________________
皆黙って俺について来い！！
| Code: | | <grinvader> static const struct { const char *const name; void *const ptr; } const lbl24[] |
Pantheon: Gideon Zhi | CaitSith2 | Nach |
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