NES Color Palette of Choice

-_pentium5.1_- · Post by **-_pentium5.1_-** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:23 am

AspiringSquire, when do you expect your palette to be complete? I know I'm not the same kind of NES color accuracy freak that many of the users here are, but I already used revision 3 of your palette in one of my own projects (read: averaging it with Fx3's palette and making some very minor tweaks), and I'll have to do it over again. Sorry, I don't mean to make this sound like a request; I'll check on this thread regularly.

AspiringSquire · Post by **AspiringSquire** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:36 pm

-_pentium5.1_- wrote:AspiringSquire, when do you expect your palette to be complete?

As far as I can tell, the current version should be the last revision. I've swapped each of the colors that (to me) was noticeably off, corrected every color for the appropriate relative brightness, and fixed my own mistakes along the way. Nothing more is left to do.

Truthfully, my latest palette should have been only the third one released, instead of the fifth, but I was too anxious about getting the "best palette yet" out and available to everyone, to supplant its inadequate predecessor(s). The releases have been somewhat rushed, but there will be no more unless a glaring mistake is found (such as the dark-grey/quasi-black ordeal), which I think is quite unlikely at this point.

I suppose the finality can't exactly be guaranteed, but right now I have no reason to attempt any further changes. Everything is final until stated otherwise.

MisterJones · Post by **MisterJones** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:53 pm

While it is still hot:

http://www.bripro.com/low/hardware/nesvidcard/index.php

-_pentium5.1_- · Post by **-_pentium5.1_-** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:26 am

BootGod seems to have some disagreements with the content of your palette. I noticed that only 3 colors actually differed between the current revision and the older revision I had downloaded, so it really wasn't that much work to fix a few of my colors. (The reason I chose to average your palette with Fx3's is that I prefer colors of moderate saturation, that is, not as dull as those of a "highly accurate" palette but not as bright as those of something like Fx3's palette.) I asked you for an ETA on the "final" palette because I thought BootGod had already given some suggestions.

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:52 am

MisterJones wrote:While it is still hot:

http://www.bripro.com/low/hardware/nesvidcard/index.php

Reminds me of an Atari emulator I saw once that required the Atari sound chip on an ISA card for sound "emulation."

Of course, it had damn accurate sound, so there's always a positive side.

BootGod · Post by **BootGod** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:12 pm

I did work on the palette a little more, I wouldn't say it's 100%. Some colors, especially the "3x" light pastel colors are hard to even find to check them out.
I guess I can post what I have so far though, see what you guys think.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:35 pm

MisterJones wrote:While it is still hot:

http://www.bripro.com/low/hardware/nesvidcard/index.php

HA!that's pretty clever.

AspiringSquire · Post by **AspiringSquire** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:23 am

I know I had declared my previous release to likely be the last one, but it is now officially stated otherwise.

Major release here; there are more changes in this revision than there were in all of the others combined.
http://rapidshare.de/files/2274115/ASQ_PAL6.zip.html

From the Readme:
Here lies the proud results of some extensive experimentation with the rules to which I hold myself accountable in the making of this palette.

First of all, staying true to the use of colors taken only from BMF's palettes, I have included the purple-ish blues from "BMFFINR1.PAL" (2 changed colors), the lightest blue-green from "bmfpal22.pal", the bright orange from "bmfpal11.pal", and the purples, red-purples, and yellows from "BMFPAL50.PAL" (12 colors); that is sixteen "new" colors in total, all of which were brightness-adjusted appropriately.

The other big change, affecting three-fourths of the palette, is sweeping alteration to the brightness of colors. There are four "tiers" of color brightness/intensity in the NES palette, meaning four shades of red, four of purple, four of blue-green, etc. The relative brightness levels of each tier to the others have been modified to reduce the gaps between them. The resulting effect is significantly closer to the appearance it would have on a TV.

You'll like it. Trust me.

Edit: Well, I found a 'bug' in the palette that needed to be corrected. The medium-dark yellow/brown was not aligned relative to the other new yellows; this was an issue in BMF's own 5.0 palette which he fixed for "BMFPAL51.PAL" (the other yellows remained the same). My palette now has that improvement as well.

Same version number because it is too high already, and this was meant to be part of the last release anyway. (link replaced)

CharlieF · Post by **CharlieF** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:58 pm

I just want to say thanks for all your work. I like it. Can you recommend a particular game to really notice the differences in the most?

AspiringSquire · Post by **AspiringSquire** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:35 pm

CharlieF wrote:I just want to say thanks for all your work. I like it. Can you recommend a particular game to really notice the differences in the most?

I don't think there is a particular game that demonstrates the changes more than others would. Every game is affected, but the differences are mostly subtle. The new yellows may be the most noticeable difference, however. Just compare in one of your favorite games—something that you might know well enough to spot the differences on your own.

Also, thanks for appreciating my efforts. I thrive on appreciation.

BootGod · Post by **BootGod** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:15 am

Hmm I was about to post mine along with a pal compare pic, but looking closely at your latest version gave me an idea about the big difference between ours. I dont have time to check it out tonight, but I'll try to get to it tommorow.

-_pentium5.1_- · Post by **-_pentium5.1_-** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:59 pm

One last comment: I can't remember where, but I saw a document by Chris Covell that had a palette image in it. The palette was simply designed to look good based on Chris Covell's guesses, but it had a slight gradation of brightness in the "near blacks": in order of darkest to lightest, 0E/0F < 1E/1F < 2E/2F < 3E/3F. [I need to look at the doc again but I can't find it. I thought it was linked from the Nintencer website, but I didn't see it there. I know it wasn't on nesdev.parodius.com that I found it.] Is there any evidence to suggest that the real NES does things this way?

Does anyone have the facilities to hardware-test ROM images on a NES? I'm thinking specifically about "Palette Test by Loopy (PD)."

AspiringSquire, I greatly appreciate your work and the motivation it gives me to keep tweaking my own palette.

Proton · Post by **Proton** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:54 pm

AspiringSquire wrote:As far as I can tell, [ASQUIRE6.ZIP] should be the last revision

Your palette is sweet. I drop it in and turn down the overall tint (I prefer a flatter, softer palette to an overly-saturated one) and it just pwns. It's pretty damn spot on based on dozens of screenshots I've looked at when I was tweaking my own set, but that was before I found yours.

I know you're into revision 1,000,000 (gross exaggeration), but I noticed something that should make it even better.

Fire up Megaman 3 and take a stroll through Magnet Man's stage. Notice the color of the magnets the flying enemies carry until you dive off the end of the platform and head down to fight Protoman. The color of the magnets and Protoman are not as red as they should be; instead they come out slightly more burgundy than they should be red. At least that's the case on my laptop's LCD. I haven't checked, but I believe the magnets' and Protoman's costume are the same palette -- if you tweak one, they should both change.

We all know Protoman's costume consists of a fire red hue, and I'm sure it was intended to be that way in the game. Other than those two minor things, the palette rules.

Proton

BootGod · Post by **BootGod** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:19 am

I'm kinda stuck with where to go with this thing. As you may or may not know, the colors you get when using an RF connection are quite different than when using a composite connection. The colors you get from composite are probably more technically accurate, but IMO, the colors you get from an RF connection are much more visually pleasing. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Btw AspiringSquire, some of the biggest differences in what you and I think is in the blues, particularly ones like 03,13,23,33. In your palette (and many others as well) these are purple. They are actually very blue. It's like night and day difference. Another area that stands out to me is the browns/yellows like 18 and 28. In yours, they leen more towards a green tint but I think it should be the other way, towards a red tint. Actually in this case, when using composite, these brown colors are also more greenish, but if you look at them with RF, they are a lot redder and IMO look much better.

One game I've been using a lot for testing is Maniac Mansion, because is uses a pretty broad range of colors and it doesn't take long to move around to check things out.

Pentium5.1, I sure wish I had a copier device for the NES so I could use a ROM like Loopy's, it would make things a hell of a lot easier :/

Post by **grinvader** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:54 am

Just make a RF palette and a composite palette...

BootGod · Post by **BootGod** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:53 am

grinvader wrote:Just make a RF palette and a composite palette...

That's probably what I'll do. I'm just curious whether other people have the same opinion about RF vs. Composite.

AspiringSquire, I made a few comparative shots with your version 6 palette and some pics of the game playing on a TV. The image quality is shit of course, but enough to show you some of the color differences anyhow.

Proton · Post by **Proton** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:28 am

BootGod wrote: Btw AspiringSquire, some of the biggest differences in what you and I think is in the blues, particularly ones like 03,13,23,33. In your palette (and many others as well) these are purple.

His palette is based off BMF's. Have a look at BMF's latest palette (final revision 3, http://bmf.rustedmagick.com/goodies.htm) to see if it jives with your hardware. As far as palettes go, his are among the most accurate there are. I don't imagine AS's are wildly different -- probably a few minor tweaks, so you may or may not notice a big difference.

Proton

BootGod · Post by **BootGod** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:08 am

Proton wrote: His palette is based off BMF's. Have a look at BMF's latest palette (final revision 3, http://bmf.rustedmagick.com/goodies.htm) to see if it jives with your hardware. As far as palettes go, his are among the most accurate there are. I don't imagine AS's are wildly different -- probably a few minor tweaks, so you may or may not notice a big difference.

Proton

Yes I was aware of that, and BMF's is accurate to the extent that the colors match what comes in thru a video capture device. But for whatever reason, all vidcap cards i've used, manage to screw the hue up. I think fceultra has the most accurate palette I've seen personally. FCEU doesn't have the palette in an external file, but since I like to use it with other emu's, I pulled it out of the source. I can post it if anyone wants it.

Proton · Post by **Proton** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:31 am

BootGod wrote: think fceultra has the most accurate palette I've seen personally. FCEU doesn't have the palette in an external file, but since I like to use it with other emu's, I pulled it out of the source. I can post it if anyone wants it.

I'm no pro, but I would imagine it isn't important that hue is altered through a capture card so long as all parts of the palette are transformed in equal proportion. Technically it would still be an accurate palette, even if it calls for an overall hue adjustment after the fact to make that sky blue or that apple red. It would be a problem, however, if say certain red hues in the palette were translated way more out of whack during the capture than the other colours. My reasoning anyway.

Please post your FCEU palette. I wouldn't mind checking it out.

Proton

-_pentium5.1_- · Post by **-_pentium5.1_-** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:03 pm

BootGod wrote:Pentium5.1, I sure wish I had a copier device for the NES so I could use a ROM like Loopy's, it would make things a hell of a lot easier :/

Most "amateur NES developers" modify cartridges to use EPROMs. The known NES copiers aren't very good for development.

FCE Ultra's default palette has a mistake in it where one of the colors that is supposed to be a shade of purple is made blue, affecting the color of the sky in the SMB1 hack "Super Mario Bros. 1 Revisited."

>We all know Protoman's costume consists of a fire red hue, and I'm sure it was intended to be that way in the game. Other than those two minor things, the palette rules.
I think that explains the motive behind the oversaturated colors in Fx3's palette (IIRC it was ripped from Rockman Complete Works for PS1).

BootGod · Post by **BootGod** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:08 pm

Proton wrote:
I'm no pro, but I would imagine it isn't important that hue is altered through a capture card so long as all parts of the palette are transformed in equal proportion.

Proton

That is precisely the problem though, some colors come thru like they should, no change neccesary. But others, the hue is shifted a little or a lot. It's not an even scale where you can just change the HSL of the entire palette and make it right.

BootGod · Post by **BootGod** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:53 am

Oh btw, I'm back home now, so here is the FCEUltra palette. I have not changed it in any way, just made it an external file for use in other emu's.

http://rapidshare.de/files/2493196/fceultra.pal.html

Dmog · Post by **Dmog** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:51 pm

Okay, can someone clue me in here? Does this more accurate palette only apply to PAL format? Did the (N.e.s) color output really differs between PAL and NTSC?

Noxious Ninja · Post by **Noxious Ninja** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:27 pm

I think .pal is the file format for NES pallettes, not an indication of which region it's for.

Dmog · Post by **Dmog** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:53 pm

Noxious Ninja wrote:I think .pal is the file format for NES pallettes, not an indication of which region it's for.

Oh right...PALette...I somehow assumed it refered to PAL format.

I'm gonna start using this palette then.
I admit, it's been so long I've played on a real NES, I haven't really noticed something glaringly wrong with VirtuaNES's palette.

What exactly IS the deal with the way NES generate(d) colors that makes it difficult to reproduce accurately? (compared to other consoles)

ZSNES board

NES Color Palette of Choice

Finality Revoked