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Official thread to take potshots at fitz 
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Ok...the posts have been moved..Thought the posts were deleted which would have been much better. Also byuu(?), yeah it may look like everyone is teaming up against Fitz but please keep in mind he has been making a lot of potshots on a lot of people on his own for a good while now.





Quote:
(with the exception of blargg who is impossibly cordial about everything)


Yes he HAS been incredibly cordial...Considering 'you've' been indirectly insulting him for a good while now, by lauching lots of insults at the people who don't like unfiltered image or who likes "old style" filter. He IS the author of the NTSC filter you know, so clearly he likes his old console image "degraded". Didn't occurred to you?

So yes unlike you, he his way beyond cordial.


Quote:
this wasn't in regards to preferences. It doesn't actually bother me that you want your pixels separated for any reason, or that you disagree with the market abandoning this characteristic forever. What bothered me was the importance and assumptions built into them. Claiming that because they were there, game designers automatically both wanted them there (without exception) and utilized them to some end in their designs. I doubt VERY MUCH either was true and have seen nothing, absolutely nothing in the form of logic or evidence that was posted in rebuttal to change my mind. And believe me, I've changed my mind on a dime when confronted with the evidence. Just recently, I suggested against Qt. I was wrong.

So you can call me stubborn, you can accuse me of your own tendencies (h4tred)


Ok is there something you're not telling us, how in the world did "tendencies" get into this?

Quote:
Perhaps the most pathetic part about all of it is how hypocritical these people are. The real system did not have savestates, but I see the same people going apeshit about bsnes not having them.


I don't care for savestates but also don't care if other use them. You otoh have a major issue in that you can't seem to accept others may actually use scanlines/filters/savestates whatever. If fitzroy consider such feature not usefull, then such feature MUST be removed. That might have something to do with why everyone consider you an ass.


Quote:
I'm breaking this off from the main topic. Let out all your pent up rage, post lame old internet jokes that promote groupthink.


You're the one with the pent up rage issues. I remember when you actually made somewhat of a little big deal because Nestopia actually ask the user if they "really want to quit"...which you can disable in the options and you still considered it a "bloated" emulator because of it. 'Control issues'.

Group thinking is one thing, stupidity is another and you've been showing a lot of it lately, when you argue/obsess over things that really don't matter.

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Last edited by Snark on Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:39 am, edited 2 times in total.



Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:28 am
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FirebrandX wrote:
I'll say it again:

The whole debate started when one side (willow & Fritzy) wanted byuu to REMOVE features from bsnes for their own selfish reasons.


That is such fearmongering nonsense, stop it. I never suggested removing filters, not once. I suggested standardizing fullscreen mode to be a full screen. I proved that the toggle system was a redundancy, thus any changes to that would have been a consolidation of redundant "features." On the surface, those simplifications looked relatively free of costs.

Problem is, I forgot that byuu re-added a scanline filter and I underestimated how many people used it. We all know what happens when a bright image with black stripes running down it gets stretched by a non-integer to fill the screen. No other filter makes line duplication so noticeable, it loses its nostalgic familiarity, which is the only thing I'm willing to concede it enhances.

So, that one thing cocks up the whole idea of having standardized fullscreen scaling and universal mode settings. Separate modes are then needed. Fine. I suggested it. It was denied because of byuu's personal usage, which I respect. That was that, Firebrand. It's over. You can stop freaking out like I'm trying to deprive you of something for my own personal gratification. I've always tried to maximize benefits while minimizing costs.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:37 am
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Yes he HAS been incredibly cordial...Considering 'you've' been indirectly insulting him for a good while now, by lauching lots of insults at the people who don't like unfiltered image or who likes "old style" filter. He IS the author of the NTSC filter you know, so clearly he likes his old console image "degraded". Didn't occurred to you?


That doesn't mean he likes the NTSC filter. It just means he found emulating an NTSC television to be an interesting technical challenge. Programmers do that sort of thing all the time. To see if he likes playing games like that, you'd have to ask him.

Quote:
You're the one with the pent up rage issues. I remember when you actually made somewhat of a little big deal because Nestopia actually ask the user if they "really want to quit"...which you can disable in the options and you still considered it a "bloated" emulator because of it. 'Control issues'.


Meh, I kind of like that idea. You want terrible fucking design? Look at how all window managers put the close button two pixels away from maximize, when it should be on the opposite side of the window, perhaps only in the context menu at that.

Imagine you just sunk all night into Lufia II, but you didn't bother to save. You think you see something interesting, but it's too small so you maximize the window. Oops, your aim was off. Goodbye emulator!

Such an option should be off by default, though. Should also have a checkbox to turn it off right on the popup. Mistake rate like this is pretty low compared to the annoyance level of seeing it every time you close the program. For someone with Parkinson's or Huntington's, that option would be a godsend.

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So, that one thing cocks up the whole idea of having standardized fullscreen scaling and universal mode settings.


Not necessarily. I was thinking of providing additional context info to the filters. The scanline filter can account for 1x scale by doing nothing, 2x and 4x by using scanlines every other line, and 3x every third line. We don't have a 5x option anymore anyway.

From there, we just need a "Constrain Height" setting to keep it from scaling 100%. Further, we can account for FitzRoy / willow's "we should start off with max scale" mode by defaulting to no menu/status, and maximum scale for the default settings. People can tweak them from there.

My personal usage patterns still interfere. Not right to force that on you guys but yeah, I'm the one writing the thing :P
But seriously, let's worry about this later.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:12 am
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Snark wrote:
Ok...the posts have been moved..Thought the posts were deleted which would have been much better. Also byuu(?), yeah it may look like everyone is teaming up against Fitz but please keep in mind he has been making a lot of potshots on a lot of people on his own for a good while now.


Asking nicely wouldn't have gotten me the answer I wanted. I wanted the best justification I could possibly get for scanlines. I wanted people to defend their claims because I'm tired of the assumptions, double-standards, and misinformation. It's not a potshot calling out dogma if that's what it is. So I took the chance that it was. Sorry if I came off like a jerk. No matter how much time I put into explaining things, it takes pages to get to the bottom of how other people are thinking.

Quote:
Yes he HAS been incredibly cordial...Considering 'you've' been indirectly insulting him for a good while now, by lauching lots of insults at the people who don't like unfiltered image or who likes "old style" filter. He IS the author of the NTSC filter you know, so clearly he likes his old console image "degraded". Didn't occurred to you?


Once again, it wasn't about preference, read the first page. How many times do I have to repeat myself?

As for blargg, he understands the machine aspect, but I honestly don't know if he ever questioned if all CRT characteristics affected the art, like screen curvature or pixel separation. If they didn't, then simulating them isn't necessarily more accurately portraying the artist's intent. The lack of said insurmountable defect today could be more accurate in what artists wanted versus what their audience was forced to endure. blargg also said he chiefly cared about reproducing the experience. That's a nostalgic goal, the accuracy of recreating what was endured rather than what was intended. There's nothing wrong with what he's doing, but that might be a better description for it.

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Ok is there something you're not telling us, how in the world did "tendencies" get into this?


h4tred tried to imply that I was commanding byuu to do something. I never did, it was the hypocritical statement of the century, because he made a thread called "How people should write their software" in which he did exactly that.

Quote:
I don't care for savestates but also don't care if other use them. You otoh have a major issue in that you can't seem to accept others may actually use scanlines/filters/savestates whatever. If fitzroy consider such feature not usefull, then such feature MUST be removed. That might have something to do with why everyone consider you an ass.


Where are you getting this stuff?

Quote:
You're the one with the pent up rage issues. I remember when you actually made somewhat of a little big deal because Nestopia actually ask the user if they "really want to quit"...which you can disable in the options and you still considered it a "bloated" emulator because of it. 'Control issues'.

Group think is one thing, stupidity is another and you've been showing a lot of it lately, when you argue/obsess over things that really don't matter.


That is an annoying default. I'm not sure how you can possibly read rage issues into me using that as a random example of bloat. I think you just get overly defensive about people making valid criticisms of programs you use. Yes, Nestopia is not very well laid out. Just look at how it separates its main config options, you have to close/navigate 10 times to reach them all once. What snesgt does would be far easier and make the menus smaller. Emulators can learn from each other, it's no secret.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:02 am
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you know what goes on in the TV has not thing to do with how any emulator actually emulates...

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Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:21 am
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funkyass wrote:
you know what goes on in the TV has not thing to do with how any emulator actually emulates...


you could say that about peripherals too...

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Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:32 am
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FitzRoy wrote:
It doesn't actually bother me that you want your pixels separated for any reason, or that you disagree with the market abandoning this characteristic forever. What bothered me was the importance and assumptions built into them. Claiming that because they were there, game designers automatically both wanted them there (without exception) and utilized them to some end in their designs.

I can't imagine many designers wanted scanlines, where there were alternatives. I can imagine designers choosing scanlines over the alternatives available at the time. My only argument for having them as an option in emulators is A) it's how the games looked back then (ignoring that current scanline emulation is poor), and B) not having them introduces some differences that the user might dislike more than having scanlines. It all comes down to user preference in the end, which there's little point in debating, other than how many people want an option so it can be decided whether it's worth adding. I sure as hell find scanlines fairly annoying on larger TVs; sometimes playing Super Mario Kart makes my eyes go funny since I often get lost in a sea of horizontal lines.

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you can't honestly expect me to believe that artists considered every contiguously colored object to be dull and in need of a broad, indiscriminate pinstripe texture. That flies in the face of any rational, thinking person.

Agreed on this extreme version. My argument for scanlines is more about how they reduce the blocky appearance of objects, rather than their texture in large areas of a solid color. But let's say an artist is on a system with a limited number of colors. He might design an object that's a solid color, and find it looks fine on the system. Unbeknownst to him, it's partly due to the scanlines giving it some crude texture. Or he might even be aware of it, saying in his mind "scanlines suck", but still making use of their rare advantage when possible.

Cross-luma (edge artifacts) and cross-chroma (fringing) are a better example; on the NES and SNES a field of repeated 16x16 tiles don't visually repeat on composite video as it would on S-video or RGB. The composite artifacts repeat at a multiple of 3 pixels, which doesn't go into the tile size (16) evenly, so you effectively get nine different versions of the tile for the price of one.

Quote:
The real system did not have savestates, but I see the same people going apeshit about bsnes not having them. The real system certainly never expected you to have this kind of convenience in the cheat system

Hehehe, save states kill the challenge and fun for sure. But wasn't there some hardware device that could do the equivalent of save states (and kill the fun)? And emulation of bad cartridge connections would actually be a quite cool novelty, since you could sometimes get some crazy things to appear, or appear in weird levels.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:53 am
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interesting how i have been waiting to do something with my wiimote. where did that come from, and why was it a wiimote, and not my 360 controller, or dualshock 3? or bluetooth mouse?

i just finally voiced an observation i've made.

i don't deny the immense help fitzroy has given towards bsnes becoming what it is, but i don't ignore the demands he makes every time a new version is released.

"this shouldn't exist"
"this value shouldn't be modifiable / this default value needs to be changed"
"this shouldn't be accessible from the GUI"
"this option is pointless because it caters to too few people"
"this option should be nested / this option shouldn't be nested"
"this should only be accessible this way"

it's never, "great job, but have you considered this?" or "i have some ideas where you could improve"

it's always demanding. and a good chunk of the time, it's personal preference.

using another thread, the windows 7 beta one. he hates the superbar/start menu because he thinks everyone should just have all their popular icons on the desktop. sure, efficiency arguments were made, and he might have "destroyed someone's world" dropping that bomb; but in the end, it all boiled down to his personal preference about how programs should be launched.

preference is fine, assuming its the one right way isn't. i enjoy a clean, empty desktop, and launching from quick launch. or vista start --> (oh snap!) my other favorite programs are right there. it's not like things never end up on my desktop, but if we look at a real desktop, it's not going to have to everything splayed out on top. just about all the tools will be hidden in the drawers, or organized very neatly in a corner. i only use the real desktop example because fitzroy did.

but in the end, it was just an observation i finally decided to voice, and somehow my wiimote is involved. i'm also surprised that this thread got this long this quick.

apparently others feel much the same way

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Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:57 am
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hate to bring back the gold argument metatron and fitzroy were pointing out, but in the thread Fitz linked to, the ONE and ONLY occurence of GOLD, ANYWHERE in that thread was made by Gil_Hamilton. not fitz.

dunno where you're getting that from, dude. :?

EDIT: http://linksadventure.no-ip.org/picture ... nfurry.jpg

replace every occurence of Aerdan with FitzRoy and it'll be almost perfect. almost.

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Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:41 am
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byuu wrote:
Quote:
[...] Nestopia actually ask the user if they "really want to quit"...
Meh, I kind of like that idea. You want terrible fucking design? Look at how all window managers put the close button two pixels away from maximize, when it should be on the opposite side of the window, perhaps only in the context menu at that.

Imagine you just sunk all night into Lufia II, but you didn't bother to save. You think you see something interesting, but it's too small so you maximize the window. Oops, your aim was off. Goodbye emulator!

It should confirm, because it's no different than asking if you want to save changes to a document before closing it. That's even how QuickNES works; every session in a particular game IS a movie/document, and if you've played it at all since you last saved, you've made changes, so you get a "do you want to save changes" if you try to close the window or quit the program. Makes perfect sense to me. And to avoid annoyance if you're trying several games to see what you like, it doesn't bother you if you haven't ever saved the game (movie) yet.
FitzRoy wrote:
I think you just get overly defensive about people making valid criticisms of programs you use. Yes, Nestopia is not very well laid out. Just look at how it separates its main config options, you have to close/navigate 10 times to reach them all once. What snesgt does would be far easier and make the menus smaller.

I'd be curious as to your take on QuickNES, if you ever have access to a Mac.
FitzRoy wrote:
As for blargg, he understands the machine aspect, but I honestly don't know if he ever questioned if all CRT characteristics affected the art, like screen curvature or pixel separation. If they didn't, then simulating them isn't necessarily more accurately portraying the artist's intent.

I have never been trying to recreate what the artists intended, just what they actually produced. My goals regarding emulation are mostly to simulate the original system (console + TV) as closely as possible, while being reasonably efficient. Trying to divine artist intent would be an appropriate part of porting a game to a modern platform. It would be an interesting exercise for sure, but quite different from emulation.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:20 am
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Quote:
h4tred tried to imply that I was commanding byuu to do something. I never did, it was the hypocritical statement of the century, because he made a thread called "How people should write their software" in which he did exactly that.


Excuse me? I never made that thread. Someone splitted off a argument and appended that title.

And please don't act like me. Its putrid.

Quote:
Call me crazy, but I don't see the point in tailor-making a public emulator to only suit the needs of one person named Fritzroy.


Indeed. Why don't they get off thier ass, learn a decent programming language, ask byuu OR other seasoned SNES emu devs for help and make thier own. Instead of making BSNES its lapdog when BSNES is byuu's baby. No one elses.

Off topic: blargg, you should really try doing QuickSNES :). QuickNES (tried out kode54's port) is damn awesome. :)


Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:40 am
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FitzRoy wrote:
So you can call me stubborn, you can accuse me of your own tendencies (h4tred), but you can't honestly expect me to believe that artists considered every contiguously colored object to be dull and in need of a broad, indiscriminate pinstripe texture. That flies in the face of any rational, thinking person.


A. It's not a pinstripe texture. Not real scanlines, anyways. Emulated scanlines are weird, and STILL manage to be more complex than the simple pinstripe you claim.



B. You can't prove that they were never considered a good thing. As I noted, the sky in your horribly mangled screenshot with about a million flaws was hurt by scanlines, but the terrain was helped.



C. I tend to play devil's advocate.
I also tend to offer absurdity in my arguments equal to that which I'm seeing on the other side.
So if you think the whole "artists intended there to be black stripes through the image" argument was absurd... well, it was.

It went downhill rather rapidly from the opening salvos(you said scanlines destroyed entire lines of detail, I corrected a complete fabrication). Within 2 posts, you were comparing scanline simulation to eating elephant balls.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:57 pm
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It's an emulator.

That being said, byuu should set up a bug tracker
let us make our opinions about what should be put in
let him and him only decide upon said things for his reasons
and let this dev talk thing gb2/bed/garfield/

at least if I WANT AN FILTAR or QUUTEE THEEMEZ PROBLEM shows up we can find out about it and fix it because it will be a pretty little leaflet on a page

instead of it showing up lost in a maze of www and FLAME WAR OH GOD IT BURNS

Then if everyone ones to argue it's totally unrelated to important things to do with a FEAKING EMULATOR GO TO WORK PEOPLE INSHA'ALLAH


Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:20 pm
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That picture freaks me out every time I see it.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:41 pm
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AamirM wrote:

That picture freaks me out every time I see it.


How long have you been on the internet?


Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:47 pm
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byuu wrote:
That doesn't mean he likes the NTSC filter. It just means he found emulating an NTSC television to be an interesting technical challenge. Programmers do that sort of thing all the time. To see if he likes playing games like that, you'd have to ask him.


I understand programmers don't necessarily use their own creations but I figured they must have some liking to what they are programming. Otherwise that would quickly turn into a torture exercise I imagine.

Sorta like if deep down, you considered the Snes a useless piece of old, long surpassed console crap with a game library that was inferior in every way to modern games that wasn't worthy of preserving.

FitzRoy wrote:
I think you just get overly defensive about people making valid criticisms of programs you use.


Not getting defensive as there's nothing to get defensive over an Nes emulator function. The Nestopia example just illustrates how you can get overly argumentative and passionate about a simple option, making yourself look ridiculous and overly zealous.


blargg wrote:
Hehehe, save states kill the challenge and fun for sure. But wasn't there some hardware device that could do the equivalent of save states (and kill the fun)?


I know some flash carts (for GBA or NDS) have build-in "savestates" functions

Agree about killing all the fun. I make the distinction between savestates using (which could be used for debugging or quickly exiting) and "savestates whoring".Imo savestates whoring is just a horrible way to play but if you think about it, game whoring (playing without enjoyment which is pretty pointless) is older than emulators and savestates.

Players long before emulators would use walkthrough (the first time they played the game) for playing RPGs, mashing their way out of dialogues, reading every secrets etc...Boring, but I expect those same players are savestates whorers now. Seems for some the only actual fun comes from beating the game.

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Last edited by Snark on Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:31 pm
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I have nothing in particular to add to this discussion (which is amusing now that I'm reading back over the fairly substantial post I've written), but I would say that while fitzroy has probably made a few suggestions that I've agreed with since I joined the forum (and I have no doubt he helped a lot with actually making it good in its beginnings), his tendency to make everyone who doesn't share his opinions the "bad guy" has kept me from doing any more than watch from the sidelines for the last couple of months. It's hard to argue about option preferences when some of them seem so trivial to me, but are apparently make or break for him. Anyone else feel like that? It's like, yes, I feel like I may be in the right on this issue, but I'm not nearly passionate enough to enter a week-long flame war over something like controller usage out of focus, or at least having an option for "are you sure you want to quit?".

I just feel like a lot of points are filibustered through. Which is silly. But thankfully Byuu does tend to hang on to options he finds useful (which for the most part are things I also find useful), so I'm not too worried about... well, I'm not sure what I'd be worried about...

*conjures up an imaginary world where bsnes has no configurable options, and simply comes preconfigured to fitzroy's exact specifications*

What a weird world that would be... I guess we'll just have to wait for fitz to actually learn a programming language, so we can all appreciate the perfection that will be fsnes. In the meantime, I suppose we'll have to deal with this.

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Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:58 pm
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If only life was so simple where the issue of scanlines/filters/savestates/emu options/etc. would actually make a difference in everyday life.

In the great scope of things, insignificant things as such don't really matter. Would a bug in some obscure game matter if an asteroid was coming towards Earth? Extreme (and hopefully unlikely) example I know, but it's needed to show how real life problems are more important than petty stuff like that.

I wish I had the time or the will to argue about little things like this (I've tried if you remember, the Super Mario Kart sound issue, which ironically I've been told doesn't exist on real hardware, oh well) but I've actually got better things to do, e.g. I've got a career to worry about, paying the bills, getting food before Winter storms, etc. You get the idea.

Why so serious? Really, you guys are too serious with this stuff, especially since this is the internet. In my eyes most of you if not all of you are in fault because you choose to respond, attack each other and call each other names. I pity you guys, really, I do. Instead of doing beneficial things to the community in general, you guys choose to fight and bicker with each other thus poisoning these websites and forum communities and you guys wonder why developers or anything interested in creating an emulator of their own could be turned off by all the drama between each other. It's a turn off, really. Nobody likes working in a poison or hostile environment.

Take a break away, all of you. Go outside and enjoy the world. You can't experience the world first hand sitting at your computers and playing games.

Take this response however you will, I don't care. If I'm right or wrong in your eyes, very well. Find fault with it, attack me and call me different names-it makes no difference to me. I choose not to lower myself to that level and respond back. This will be my one and only response. Welcome to the real world. :)

P.S. Why can't we all just get along? :P

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Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:51 pm
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Relevance and priority are all in the eye of the beholder; there is nothing inherently important or unimportant. Your idea of what is important is no more valid than anyone else's here. If you would address why people are here doing what they do, you might have more effect. As a first step, you must consider it all valid and having a noble goal, then you can make progress.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:02 pm
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King Of Chaos wrote:
Take this response however you will, I don't care.


i take it as obscenely 'holier than thou'

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Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:18 pm
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sweener2001 wrote:
but i don't ignore the demands he makes every time a new version is released.

"this shouldn't exist"
"this value shouldn't be modifiable / this default value needs to be changed"
"this shouldn't be accessible from the GUI"
"this option is pointless because it caters to too few people"
"this option should be nested / this option shouldn't be nested"
"this should only be accessible this way"

it's never, "great job, but have you considered this?" or "i have some ideas where you could improve"

it's always demanding. and a good chunk of the time, it's personal preference.


You aren't understanding how the process has worked in this program or any program. Some programs are made to be used by other people. Creators of those programs can decide to open themselves up to criticism or take suggestions. Byuu is one of those people.

Preferences are infinite and some preferences are in direct conflict with each other. It is impossible to accommodate everyone's preferences and it is desirable to have a standard modus operandus. It is the main reason open source operating systems have failed to gain market share even when things like firefox have succeeded. Linux is TOO open, there is no formal leadership on the development side. There is no authority to say "this is the official distribution and API we are going to use and you cannot create your own, and we will sacrifice unlimited customization in order to force developers and users to share a unified mode of operation. If some people have a fundamental conflict, they have to convince a rational authority why theirs should prevail. Not from gut feelings, but a logical analysis of why they like or dislike something."

If I or someone else makes a suggestion that incurs a penalty for others, those people have to pipe up and defend it. Byuu is the ultimate judge that has to look at both sides of the case and make a decision. If I say something should be moved, removed, added, or changed, it isn't demanding that he take it out, it's a stated opinion that I have to convince him of. He doesn't have to do it, he doesn't even have to offer counterpoints. He's just the one with the gavel, and if you have an objection, say it. This is how the system has worked and has always worked. If you get frustrated by the fact that you are losing cases, that does not give you the right to start making lies about me.

Everyone would do well to understand this here and now, so that it doesn't beget the kind of nonsense psychoanalysis and infighting we are seeing in this thread. There is no doubt going to be accuracy vs usability debates about BS-X, it is a completely screwed up situation unique to the SNES.

Quote:
Not getting defensive as there's nothing to get defensive over an Nes emulator function. The Nestopia example just illustrates how you can get overly argumentative and passionate about a simple option, making yourself look ridiculous and overly zealous.


That "simple" option forces the supermajority of users to dig in the configuration and disable it. That inconvenience outweighs the inconvenience of the few who want it to do the opposite. It's a perfect of example of not understanding cost/benefit relationships that are supposed to guide all program designs. This is no small thing, yes, we are all passionate here about what we're doing, that's why we've spent years on these forums. We don't want people who AREN'T passionate coming in and making stupid comments. That's the problem with having bsnes in these forums. They're not well moderated and we get trolled by people who are bored with the lack of ZSNES progress.

adventure_of_link wrote:
hate to bring back the gold argument metatron and fitzroy were pointing out, but in the thread Fitz linked to, the ONE and ONLY occurence of GOLD, ANYWHERE in that thread was made by Gil_Hamilton. not fitz.

dunno where you're getting that from, dude.

replace every occurence of Aerdan with FitzRoy and it'll be almost perfect. almost.


FitzRoy wrote:
I don't exactly have any built up wealth tied up in the stock market at this point, but my parents do and are probably going to roll over to something like what this guy suggests: overseas utilities and precious metals.


Last edited by FitzRoy on Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:24 pm
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Quote:
In the great scope of things, insignificant things as such don't really matter.


To me, in the grand scheme of life, nothing really matters. We all live, we all die. Everything we ever do, regardless of scope, is meaningless. Perhaps in years, perhaps in millenia. Some can't even afford food, some never work a day in their lives. For whatever reason, this is where life took me. Within the limits of my money and talent (and the legality of various entheogens), programming is the most fun I can have; and it somewhat benefits others to boot.

That said, I just consider FitzRoy as passionate about UI design, and mudlord as passionate about software performance, as I am about emulating hardware precisely. It's just what we feel we're best at.

I always try and get as much consensus as I can, so there's no need to worry about this becoming only one person's (including my own) UI design.

I would really like to see FitzRoy write his ideal UI from scratch though. Let people judge the final product rather than a bunch of textual descriptions. From there, people could go with what they like best, and everyone's happy.

Quote:
Linux is TOO open, there is no formal leadership on the development side. There is no authority to say "this is the official distribution and API we are going to use and you cannot create your own, and we will sacrifice unlimited customization in order to force developers and users to share a unified mode of operation.


I look at a super-locked down platform like Firefox, forcing the "AwesomeBar" on everyone, and that annoys me to no end. I look at a really flexible approach like KDE 3, and I'm drowning in a sea of useless options trying to find what I want inside a groupbox inside a tab control inside a listbox inside one of ten configuration windows.

I don't want to follow either extreme. Xfce's middle-grounds approach I've enjoyed very much, so at the moment I'm walking a fine line. Hiding joypad axis sensitivity settings, but not forcing my preference on everyone. I want to offer blargg's NTSC filter options, but I don't want the video panel to have too many sliders. Even as the UI is now, many novices here can't find certain options (eg region override, ARC proportions, etc), so there's work to be done.

Quote:
There is no doubt going to be accuracy vs usability debates about BS-X, it is a completely screwed up situation unique to the SNES.


Definitely going to be a fight, but I'm sticking to a pure model: we're emulating what the real hardware does now, so it will never exceed SNESGT et al. People are going to have to deal with cheat code files / soft-patches to bypass expiry checks in the BIOS, and they'll have to keep track of ideal times themselves. I will put a "date/time" edit control on the BS-X ROM loader window, saving the last time setting.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:19 pm
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byuu wrote:
we're emulating what the real hardware does now


so what I'm hearing is one of us has to go hijack St. Giga and start broadcasting again? ;)

_________________
byuu wrote:
Seriously, what kind of asshole makes an old-school 2D emulator that requires a Core 2 to get full speed? >:(


Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:49 pm
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Ahah ohh man...Holy cr*p King of Chaos 'please' get off from whatever giant basketball-playing 19-foot horse you're riding because this has GOT to be one of the most pompous, most hypocritical and completely disingenuous goody-goody feelings post I've seen around here.

Also:

King Of Chaos wrote:
Take a break away, all of you. Go outside and enjoy the world. You can't experience the world first hand sitting at your computers and playing games.


Says the King in front of his own monitor :roll: Hope you can notice the irony...And this has nothing to do with "going outside and enjoying the world", afaik no one here is a recluse. I think the majority here are college students, a few are old enough to be on the job market..what do you do Chaos?

Also...you have 397 posts.

Quote:
I choose not to lower myself to that level and respond back.


You already did lower yourself by making that first post. Unless you consider pompous hit-and-run posts somehow a sign of high character.

Do you throw beer cans at people out of running cars and then fancy yourself virtuous because you did not "lower yourself" responding to the verbal comebacks you get?

FitzRoy wrote:
That "simple" option forces the supermajority of users to dig in the configuration and disable it. That inconvenience outweighs the inconvenience of the few who want it to do the opposite. It's a perfect of example of not understanding cost/benefit relationships that are supposed to guide all program designs.


Eh, funny because if you isolate the last sentence above, it perfectly describe what I think of your approach.

Time it takes to disable the option: 2 seconds ('once'). Now c'mon, don't tell me your life is so exciting that you actually feel cheated for wasting 2 seconds adjusting an option. Because let's face it, other than King of Chaos with his 397 posts and pro enjoy-the-real-world philosophy, I think none of us are THAT busy.

Benefits of removing the feature: minimal (if not 'marginal' if not non existent.) Not to mention you would potentially let down a % of your userbase that 'did' use the option...

The cost/benefits are not in your favor and I think 'you' have some trouble understand correctly cost/benefits. A programmer only spend so much hours a week/month working on his emulator. And spending time in trying to determine what would be the best standardized, non-user configurable setup would not be the best way to maximize benefits while minimizing costs.

Quote:
This is no small thing, yes, we are all passionate here about what we're doing, that's why we've spent years on these forums. We don't want people who AREN'T passionate coming in and making stupid comments. That's the problem with having bsnes in these forums. They're not well moderated and we get trolled by people who are bored with the lack of ZSNES progress.


Sorry but your use of "we" is...well let's just leave it at weird. You speak as if bsnes was a duo project from you and byuu. Afaik this is solely byuu's project, with a few recognized external contributions.

And honestly I really don't know who you're referring to when you speak of people who supposely troll the board and are -according to you, bored Zsnes enthusiast. I don't know if these so-call trolls even exist...I mostly see bsnes enthusiasts here. I can say for myself that I never trolled the bsnes board and that bsnes has been the sole Snes emulator I use for a long time (that and my copier of course)

_________________
I want to fry~~ Sky Hiiiiiiiiigh~
Let's go-o-o-O~ togeda~


Last edited by Snark on Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:49 pm, edited 5 times in total.



Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:54 pm
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byuu wrote:
I would really like to see FitzRoy write his ideal UI from scratch though. Let people judge the final product rather than a bunch of textual descriptions. From there, people could go with what they like best, and everyone's happy.


That's pretty much what it's come to now, hasn't it? It's not something that can improve much after this. Course, I thought that years ago and look how much better it's gotten. Maybe someday I'll have enough to pay someone to make an NES emulator like bsnes. That would probably be easier than me becoming a programmer, or going through the same gambit with someone else. How many other authors do you think I could convince to only support PRG/CHR separation against a database file? None, they don't consider it worth the effort to switch from headers. That's how I'm going to be documenting the data for my site, but absolutely no emulators support that format.

Snark wrote:
Eh, funny because if you isolate the last sentence above, it perfectly describe what I think of your approach.

Time it takes to disable the option: 2 seconds ('once').


Wrong, you have to find it first, in total it would take a new user 30 seconds. Just for that. The "options" menu issue could cumulatively waste hours for each person over the course of life usage. For no reason. And the more bloated the menu becomes failing to simplify itself, the harder it becomes to wade through.

Quote:
Now c'mon, don't tell me your life is so exciting that you actually feel cheated for wasting 2 seconds adjusting an option. Because let's face it, other than King of Chaos with his 397 posts and pro enjoy the real world philosophy, I think none of us are THAT busy.


But that's the argument that begets bloat. Looked at individually, they don't waste a lot of time. Cumulatively, they do. Which is why, yes, you want to address them to make sure the droplets don't form a pool.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:57 pm
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