Hey doc writers, what browsers and text editors do you use?

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Jipcy
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Hey doc writers, what browsers and text editors do you use?

Post by Jipcy »

I wanted to know what browsers you guys use to view the docs, and what text editors you use to edit them, because:

I've been thinking of doing a number of things to the documentation markup. First of all, I've been thinking about changing some important stuff so that it is actually correct XHTML 1.1. I know it validates correctly, but I would need to change some things so that Firefox actually parses it as XHTML 1.1.

I have no idea how IE7 handles XML and XHTML 1.1. I guess we'll find out soon enough. If any of you have already installed IE7, let me know.

Furthermore, and this is not dependant on the stuff above, I was going to change some markup so that it more closely resembles XHTML2 (which is not yet a W3C recommendation). That way, once XHTML2 is actually more widely adopted, it should be pretty easy to search-and-replace stuff to change it over to XHTML2.

Do you think it's a good assumption that the vast majority of people that will be looking at the documentation are going to be using Firefox or IE7? I'm going to assume that DOS users will receive text docs.

One last thing, to Clements: I've shared my opinions about CHM files before. Mainly, in that I think it's unnecessary. Regardless, some of the changes I'm thinking about may make it so that you can't build a CHM file using your current method. I'd like to know what your current method is so maybe we can improve it so that you can build a CHM file from XML files.
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Deathlike2
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Post by Deathlike2 »

Browsers: Opera (9.02) primarily, Firefox (1.5.0.7) secondary
Text Editors: Metapad primarily, Notepad if I'm lazy

Expect most users to use IE5/6 (with bad/near non-existant XHTML 1.1 support) and Firefox 1.5x. IE7 just came out after all... I suspect Opera users are 8.5x (or as early as when they first rid of their ads) to 9.0x

The CHM file is much easier to deal with than the html docs for the Windows port IMO. Though as long as some set of docs are available... it kinda makes no difference in the end.
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Post by Jipcy »

Who still uses IE5?

I pretty much don't care about anyone stupid enough to still be using Windows 98, or god forbid, Windows 95. Even Microsoft doesn't support them anymore.

Yes, I know ZSNES is supposed to work on Windows 95/98/ME. I don't really know why though. I understand DOS, though, because that's the only way to run ZSNES fast enough on REALLY old computers.

Is it possible to still be using IE5 if you have Windows XP?

What is the default version of IE on fully-updated Windows 2000?

IE7 is going to be pushed out through Automatic Update in November (whether as a critical update or not, I don't know).

Does anyone know, are the Serivce Packs for Windows 2000 and XP listed as Critical Updates?

Anyway, the point is, if someone is running a version of Internet Explorer that is less than 7, as a result of not installing critical updates, it sucks to be them, but they have bigger problems than not being able to view the ZSNES docs.
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Deathlike2
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Post by Deathlike2 »

Jipcy wrote:Who still uses IE5?
People who are lazy. :D

Pretty much any system that doesn't update the default IE, including Win98SE, Win2k, and WinME (they all use IE5 by default, ME uses IE5.5). IE4 is installed by default on the very later editions Win95 and Win98.
Yes, I know ZSNES is supposed to work on Windows 95/98/ME. I don't really know why though. I understand DOS, though, because that's the only way to run ZSNES fast enough on REALLY old computers.
ZSNES still manages to work on those OSes too.. it's really the processors though can make them more bearable anyways.
Is it possible to still be using IE5 if you have Windows XP?
No. IE6 is installed by default.
What is the default version of IE on fully-updated Windows 2000?
IE5, unless you install the latest IE possible, only IE6.
Does anyone know, are the Serivce Packs for Windows 2000 and XP listed as Critical Updates?
I haven't used it as of late, but I'm fairly sure they are.
Anyway, the point is, if someone is running a version of Internet Explorer that is less than 7, as a result of not installing critical updates, it sucks to be them, but they have bigger problems than not being able to view the ZSNES docs.
Sometimes the non-willingness of people to update IE altogether (due to using other web browsers) is not an evil thing. IIRC, IE7 is not available for Win2k. IE6 is not available for Win95 either.
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Post by Clements »

Browsers: Firefox 2.0 RC3, IE6 and various IE7 release candidates.
Editors: Notepad
CHM Compiler: Microsoft HTML Help Workshop (current version)

CHM should work properly as long as the docs have compatibility with IE6/7, and right now there aren't any major problems here. I believe CHM files also use the IE7 engine if the browser is installed.

IE compatibility is very important since approx. 80% of total web users will be using either IE4 to IE7, Maxthon, Avant browser or any combination of those as their primary browser(s). Retaining support for various older versions of Firefox/Opera is also particularly important for the website format. We want to make sure that as many users can access the docs as possible.
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Post by Nach »

Firefox primarely, Konqueror secondary.
KATE for editing.
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Post by Lord Nightmare »

editor: emacs. yes, I'm masochistic in that regard.
browser: firefox
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Post by xamenus »

Firefox and Notepad.
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Post by Pyroburner69 »

I use notepad for docs
I use opera (current version) firefox (secondary) and internet exploder as a lost resort. I would only ask that you do not use anything special that likes IE over anything else. I hate pages that only open in IE correctly
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Post by adventure_of_link »

Back when I fixed the docs for NSRT Frontend, I used kwrite and kate
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Post by Jipcy »

Clements wrote:IE compatibility is very important since approx. 80% of total web users will be using either IE4 to IE7, Maxthon, Avant browser or any combination of those as their primary browser(s). Retaining support for various older versions of Firefox/Opera is also particularly important for the website format. We want to make sure that as many users can access the docs as possible.
I've been thinking a lot about this, I've come to this conclusion:

It would be a huge mistake to limit our ability (as doc writers) to move forward to better things, just to have a wider range of "system requirements."

I've also realized that we don't need the SVN docs to have huge compatibility. Just like developers don't expect that every end-user out their can easily compile their source code, we also don't need to expect that. Furthermore, we as doc writers, with access to advanced tools, have the ability to produce end-user documents that are more widely compatibile than the SVN docs. Examples: the text files and the CHM file. I have also been looking around to see if we can produce a PDF file (although I don't really like the method that most free PDF converters use).

After coming to the above realizations, I fully support alternate, "down-graded" versions of the docs, like the txt and CHM files. ASquire, I say this specifically to you: before the next official release, I want to help go through the TXT docs and make sure they are as close to the HTML docs as possible. I really, really appreciate the work you do for us.

And it's not just the TXT files. We could pretty easily produce HTML files that validate as XHTML 1.1, 1.0, or HTML 4.01. The differences are, for the most part, minor.

My point with all this is that the doc writers should have access and be able to edit the HTML using the "best" means available, which DEFINITELY doesn't include HTML 4.01.


Ok, I know I blab a lot, but here is a concrete reason why I want to change a few things with the HTML docs: First off, I want the docs to go through Firefox's XML code path, as detailed here. I was editing the docs today, and I found out the real-world difference between the XML and HTML code paths. I had one extra </div> in the document, that did not have a starting <div>. With the page having an .htm extension, FireFox rendered it. With the page having an .xml extension, Firefox gave me this error:
XML Parsing Error: mismatched tag. Expected: </body>.
Location: file:///C:/Data/SourceForge%20SVN/zsnes-docs/html/readme.xml
Line Number 770, Column 3:</div>
--^
This is very useful to doc writers, since it will allow us to more easily keep the markup valid.

Second, there a ton of reasons here why we should change the mime type from text/html to application/xhtml+xml.

Ok, that's all I have. The main changes I was planning on making to the files is renaming their extension to .xml and changing the mime type to application/xhtml+xml.

EDIT: I've also been working on some really sweet CSS, using the newly re-structured Readme.htm (not yet commited). Currently, Opera seems to render it *perfectly*. Firefox doesn't turn on the horizontal scroll bar when needed.
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OS/Browser/Text Editor Usage

Post by AspiringSquire »

Jipcy wrote:I pretty much don't care about anyone stupid enough to still be using Windows 98
That's really not fair; there are some good reasons to still use Win98se, particularly on older computers. It is, after all, the best Windows system that could still run DOS software/games, according to many people.


What I use:
Browser: Firefox 1.5.0.7, exclusively.
Text Editor: I use only metapad because it rules, as plain-text editors go.

Although, metapad does have some trouble reading the html docs properly, and I have just discovered why. There are 3 bytes at the beginning of those files that aren't part of the text; they seem completely unnecessary and they cause problems with some editors (not just metapad). Would it be okay to axe those disruptive 3 bytes?
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Re: OS/Browser/Text Editor Usage

Post by Jipcy »

AspiringSquire wrote:That's really not fair; there are some good reasons to still use Win98se, particularly on older computers. It is, after all, the best Windows system that could still run DOS software/games, according to many people.
Fair enough. If someone is actually using a system like that to browse the web, etc, they are in for trouble. Win9x users can get some down-graded version of the docs.
There are 3 bytes at the beginning of those files that aren't part of the text; they seem completely unnecessary and they cause problems with some editors (not just metapad). Would it be okay to axe those disruptive 3 bytes?
That's the Unicode byte order mark. You can delete those characters as necessary to edit your files. I'll make sure to use Unicde w/o the BOM from now on.

You might take a look at Notepad++. It's the text editor I use, and it does handle BOMs just fine. However, I don't have any idea what features it has in comparison to Metapad.
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Post by Jipcy »

Well, I've been doing a lot of research.

Right now I think the best solution is to change the DOCTYPE of the docs to XHTML 1.0 Strict. I plan on following the HTML Compatibility Guidelines set by the W3C.

Anyway, I won't bore you with the details. The docs should be functionally identical when I make the changes. It should really effect anything at all.


I'm still planning on going over the mark-up to make it more HTML2-like.
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Post by Jipcy »

Ok. This stuff is done.

The HTML files are now XHTML 1.0 Strict doctype.

The markup structure resembles XHTML2 somewhat. It should be easy to switch over to it, when the time comes.

I moved the main stylesheet "style.css" to the /styles folder and renamed it to radio.css.

I created a new, alternate stylesheet "jipcy.css" in the /styles folder. This is a new style I'm working on. Let me know what you think.

These are pretty much all the markup changes I have planned for a while. I'll get back to writing content now.
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Post by Deathlike2 »

It looks ok, but it doesn't look quite right. Like the borders around "The following are implemented:" feel a little out of place. Maybe it's just the location...
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Post by Clements »

When I updated the CHM a few days ago, I have noticed no compatibility problems so far with the new files. It's using the radio.css stylesheet at the moment with some very slight modifications.
Last edited by Clements on Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Jipcy »

That's good Clements. I wans't expecting any problems. The changes I made were intended to make things more, not less, compatibile. (Even though that's opposite to some of my original plans.)
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