Wikipedia -- immediate community help requested

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byuu

Wikipedia -- immediate community help requested

Post by byuu »

It appears that we have another Wikipedia user with absolutely no life on our hands. This time, it's TTN.

As of today, he has nominated all SNES emulation related articles on Wikipedia for fast-track deletion, including ZSNES, SNES9x, bsnes and the generalized SNES emulator list -- stating all of the aforementioned software is non-notable.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zsnes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNES9x
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bsnes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_SNES_emulators

Apparently, 20,000,000+ downloads from SourceForge and 400,000+ Google matches alone, as well as countless magazine articles discussing ZSNES isn't enough to make it notable, according to this one user's opinion.

Now, personally, I agree that specific emulators should not be listed in something claiming to be an encyclopedia. But I take issue with the fact that this sole user has taken it upon himself to target only the SNES. He has left all articles regarding every other console system in tact, including specific emulators such as FCE Ultra and VBA, as well as other lists such as List of NES emulators and List of Console Emulators. If the ZSNES article is removed, then so too should well over 300+ other emulator-specific articles for all platforms, virtually all of which are most certainly less notable than ZSNES (excepting perhaps MAME.)

Anyway, due to the fast track deletion requested, there isn't a lot of time to save these four articles.

So, if you guys want to see Wikipedia keep articles on various emulators in the future, please act now and voice your opinion. On this guy's user page (not that he will care, he seems to have a God complex judging from the comments on his page, but moreso to document his behavior), by challenging his four deletions above, by requesting AfD discussions on them, by raising community awareness so others can join in to oppose these deletions, by raising this point to any admins you know, etc etc.

Otherwise, they're all going to end up gone. I've given up caring about Wikipedia at this point, as there's too many people like TTN to make it worth caring about, but since it was brought up to me, I figured I'd mention it here.

At the very least, I will concede that bsnes is not a notable software program. So feel free to support its' deletion, I could care less. But I take personal offense to stating that ZSNES and SNES9x are not notable. At the very least, they are pioneers of the entire emulation movement, even if their fame has diminished with the SNES' age.

Personally, the next time I get a chance, I'm going to be blacklisting all referrals from Wikipedia on my domain. I've had enough of this. But it's up to you guys if you want to save every other emulator article there or not.

Anyone can edit these pages, so have at it if you care.

---

EDIT: it would seem you guys don't care all that much. Nonetheless, Panzer88 risked his account by removing the deletion marks. You can see the initial marks here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =153626241

Given TTN's user talk page, it's unlikely he'll back down from such a small setback. Oh well. Anyone know if authors are allowed to request removal of pages to projects they own? Or does Wiki suffer from Cowerings Syndrome, too?
funkyass
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Post by funkyass »

it was a proposal, not actually fast tracked.
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sweener2001
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Post by sweener2001 »

this board doesn't move that fast, either.
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blackmyst
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Post by blackmyst »

What an asshole. :\

I'd help, but I don't have an account and I have absolutely no clue how that whole system works.
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Casteele
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Re: Wikipedia -- immediate community help requested

Post by Casteele »

byuu wrote:EDIT: it would seem you guys don't care all that much. Nonetheless, Panzer88 risked his account by removing the deletion marks.
I don't know much about how Wiki operates behind-the-scenes, but what I am reading now is that there is a five day period to contest the deletion (and apparently, they can undelete as well, if need be?) So give us at least four days before assuming we don't care--Some of us have jobs which frown upon surfing the 'net for personal reasons.. :-P

At any rate, as soon as I can figure out HOW to help/contest the deletions, I will. One interesting note.. Read the "criteria for speedy deletion" page. It specifically lists what they DO consider to fall under non-notable, implying that anything not on the list is NOT considered criteria; Specifically, software is *not* on the list.

Cheers,
C.
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Post by funkyass »

the lack of secondary sources on those pages doesn't really help tho. Can something be really notable if an articles' sources point to the same source?
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byuu

Post by byuu »

The original authors are the best source of reliable information, but WP does not trust them to provide unbiased info, nor its users to discern bias for themselves. Thus, we end up having to either quote blatantly inaccurate information, or quote straight from the source, the author's homepage.

We can't really expect other sites to do much more than (poorly) plagiarize the authors' own words. Not even major software packages such as MAME have independent auditors going over their code to verify certain claims.

So does that mean we should delete the relevant articles completely? If so, I don't have a problem with that. Delete all emulator articles, or leave them all. Do it uniformly, and don't target the SNES specifically, and I'll have no problems here.

I still think it's a shame to everyone else that all of that historical info will be lost, hence my mentioning it here before the articles were destroyed.
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Post by funkyass »

wikipedia articles need to be a bit broader than the technical aspects of each emulator. For zsnes and snes9x there is over a decade worth of history that none of the articles even touch.

in short, the articles are crap, and until someone makes an effort to improve them people are going to try to get them deleted to make themselves feel like big dicks on campus.
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bobthebuilder
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Post by bobthebuilder »

funkyass wrote:wikipedia articles need to be a bit broader than the technical aspects of each emulator. For zsnes and snes9x there is over a decade worth of history that none of the articles even touch.

in short, the articles are crap
That is very true :(
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Post by snkcube »

funkyass wrote:wikipedia articles need to be a bit broader than the technical aspects of each emulator. For zsnes and snes9x there is over a decade worth of history that none of the articles even touch.
People sure can add a whole lot of info about ZSNES and SNES9X. However, lots of Wikipedia users are picky about non-referenced information so the info added usually gets reverted. Even if it's from the original authors themselves, the Wikipedia users still want something referenced.

If the user goes back and adds the removal templates again, I'd go to his user page and discuss it there. And by the looks of it, someone already posted something on his user page.

byuu: I don't think Panzer88 is risking his account by any means. The deletion template says that "You may remove this message if you improve the article or otherwise object to its deletion for any reason." But hell, the user hasn't even explained his real reason of trying to delete those articles.
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Post by Gil_Hamilton »

snkcube wrote:But hell, the user hasn't even explained his real reason of trying to delete those articles.
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byuu

Post by byuu »

Agreed, the articles are awful. One being a mere two paragraphs with largely incorrect information anyway.

But I still don't think destroying the few independent references and info we have found thus far just because it's "not good enough" is a very silly policy. 'Baby and the Bath Water' and all that. What, is Wikipedia short on disk space or something?

Again though, we aren't Microsoft here, we're doing all of this for free. Are we supposed to be expected to pay independent researches to review our products, so that we have "independent references" ? Most places won't touch that kind of thing for free because despite our emulators being completely legal, what 99.9% of people use them for is definitely not legal. Even still, there are plenty of references out there, like the ZSNES mention in PC Magazine a few months back.
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Post by funkyass »

wikipedia has an excess of ego and a lack of single ownership for articles - the buck stops when it gets shot. Its goal is to be a competitor to Encyclopedia Britannica, but it really lacks leadership to make it universally that good.

the zsnes mention in PC magazine is exactly what is needed to make it "notable", cause thats a reference to the "real world".

Their notability guidelines need a complete overhaul.
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Post by badinsults »

Personally, I think that Wikipedia has a lot of problems with having pointless articles. I think that having a single article on Snes emulators with a paragraph describing each notable emulator would be adequate.


The big problem with Wikipedia is that people have made it into a sort of personal webpage for things that they like. A lot of articles would be better if they were shortened significantly and link to websites that contain more information. For instance the page for Full Metal Alchemist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_metal_alchemist

This article is extremely long and full of trivia. It then links to individual articles on characters that are almost as long as the base article. Although it may interest some people, this full-on analysis does not belong in an encyclopedia. A similar analogy would be if the global warming article contained the entire text of the IPCC report (which is several hundred pages long). It is pretty telling how bad it is when the actual Wikipedia page on Global Warming is shorter than the article on Full Metal Alchemist (excluding references).

In essence, I am promoting Wikipedia to be used as it should be: as a starting point of research and information. If someone wants to create long articles on each snes emulator (which doesn't seem likely, given the state of the pages), then it should probably be done on a separate website. A wikipedia article summarizing all snes emulators should be done, and then have a link to other websites for more information.
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