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ZSNES and SMW hacking 
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Post ZSNES and SMW hacking
I was looking at the this thread over on SMW Central, and I thought I would make a statement about this.

Although we here certainly don't want to discourage people from using zsnes, as it is a great program to play SNES games, we do not encourage making hacks that rely on exploiting known bugs in the program. The ultimate goal of zsnes, like any emulator, is to be as close to the original hardware as possible. As such, future updates of zsnes will almost certainly break Super Mario World hacks that rely on these bugs. Yes, I am specifically addressing the issues with Addmusic used by many Super Mario World hackers. The goal of any hack should be to be compatible with the original hardware.

It is a real shame that people continue to use these broken tools, as I think there are likely some great hacks out there. The fact that they do not work on a real SNES is disappointing.

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Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:08 am
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ZSNES Shake Shake Prinny
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
The really weird thing is that even after we finally outgrow the current version, they'll keep using it so that their hacks work.

*shrug*

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Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:12 am
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Buzzkill Gil

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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
grinvader wrote:
The really weird thing is that even after we finally outgrow the current version, they'll keep using it so that their hacks work.

*shrug*

Pity there's not a timebomb built into ZSNES to force upgrades.
...
Except it probably would've gone off four years ago.

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You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


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Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:14 am
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
Let's look at it this way: it's probable that people who actually know what they're doing are going to make sure their SNES hacks work on the actual SNES, anyway (like grin mentioned in the eb thread). So likely you're not missing anything great out of those hacks that only work on some old emulator.

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Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:39 pm
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
For "people who know what they're doing" you'll expect technical ability, however a lot of people just looking to make hacks unknowingly using patches that won't run on a SNES are potentially good at making levels and stuff. They're not really inclusive.

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Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:09 am
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Sir Robin the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot

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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
Heh "close as possible to real hardware" :lol:

Zsnes 2.0 isn't going to happen till 2016.

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Last edited by nintendo_nerd on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:51 pm
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ZSNES Shake Shake Prinny
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
Just because we're not slaves to our hobbies doesn't mean we abandonned anything.
Seriously, stop pulling that shit. It's getting boring.

It's like having someone clawing at the inside of a coffin and telling him he's dead because he's in a coffin so he should stop struggling. Derp.
Nobody except for us is qualified to claim it's dead, so respect that and shove it.

P.S.: it's not.

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Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:23 pm
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Buzzkill Gil

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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
Well, at least he's grown a bit of a spine.
Pity he's using it to try and start drama instead of solve his problems, right?

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Squall_Leonhart wrote:
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You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


KHDownloads


Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:29 pm
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Sir Robin the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot

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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
Well, at least he's grown a bit of a spine.
Pity he's using it to try and start drama instead of solve his problems, right?


For instance....?

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Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:28 am
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
nintendo_nerd wrote:
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
Well, at least he's grown a bit of a spine.
Pity he's using it to try and start drama instead of solve his problems, right?


For instance....?

Like that time you came in here to quote byuu out of context to support your making fun of ZSNES.

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Squall_Leonhart wrote:
Quote:
You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


KHDownloads


Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:54 am
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Sir Robin the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot

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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
Look, I gotta level with you. I only say what I say because I don't understand why people still use Zsnes, when there are more accurate emulators out there. No, I don't agree with Byuu and his cultist ways in emulation, no Snes emulator should require a Core i5 to run full speed, so I use Snes9x 1.53. Like Internet Explorer 6, the attachment rate is inexplicably high and isn't going to change even when 2.0 is released and if hell freezes over. It's hard NOT to be skeptical when the last official release was well over six years ago, so people lose faith, people move on, and people know of better emulators out there.

I remember when 2.0 was announced, along with the Sony SPC700 emulator core replacement; that right there is why I don't use it. My ears are trained to tell the difference between emulators and real hardware, as was the result of several years' exposure to emulators. When Snes9x came out, that all changed once Blaarg's S-SMP core was implemented, and when compared to real hardware, I noticed no difference between the two and no longer am able to go back to Zsnes 1.51. The sound effects are off, the SPC700 is not synchronized, the entire audio emulation as a whole has gone to hell.

I don't know what the hell I was on, or what I posted what I posted, but suffice to say, I want to use Zsnes 2.0, I really want to give it another chance, but at rate, Obama's second term will be over by then. I don't know why people get defensive when asked about progress updates, which we all know are not the same as specific release dates, right???

Progress update =/= release date info

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Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:28 am
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Buzzkill Gil

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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
nintendo_nerd wrote:
No, I don't agree with Byuu and his cultist ways in emulation, no Snes emulator should require a Core i5 to run full speed

Which as you doubtless know since you're quoting byuu from his forums, is not the case. An ATOM can get full-speed in most cases.

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Squall_Leonhart wrote:
Quote:
You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


KHDownloads


Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:39 am
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Sir Robin the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot

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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
nintendo_nerd wrote:
No, I don't agree with Byuu and his cultist ways in emulation, no Snes emulator should require a Core i5 to run full speed

Which as you doubtless know since you're quoting byuu from his forums, is not the case. An ATOM can get full-speed in most cases.


Can someone at least explain why I get so much audio crackling on a Core i7 when using the performance profile? That doesn't sound right to me at all. Don't worry, I deleted the Byuu quote as he and I have, uh, conflicting personalities.

Using the recently released Higan 0.92, maybe I should stick with an older Bsnes, or not use it at all.

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Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:33 pm
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
Asking for progress updates is meaningless when there is no progress being achieved.

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Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:22 pm
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Sir Robin the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot

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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
grinvader wrote:
Asking for progress updates is meaningless when there is no progress being achieved.


That's more like it. A lot of people are under the assumption that the project is dead when no progress has been made in who knows how long. Why the cock-teasing then? Why do people have false hope that someday there will be a Zsnes 2.0? Hell, why is the attachment rate for 1.51 so f***ing high when there are far more accurate emulators out there?

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Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:16 am
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
A lot of people continue to use 1.36 because it has netplay, and basically no other emulator does; on top of that is that they think having 2 SNES emulators is silly when zsnes generally usually works OK. I see some LPs where they'll complain about bugs in their ROMs or whatever, without trying another emulator though, so laziness is probably part of it since they probably had some friend burn a CD for them with a bunch of emulators on it a decade ago. Also, see signature. :p

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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:07 pm
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
paulguy wrote:
A lot of people continue to use 1.36 because it has netplay, and basically no other emulator does; on top of that is that they think having 2 SNES emulators is silly when zsnes generally usually works OK. I see some LPs where they'll complain about bugs in their ROMs or whatever, without trying another emulator though, so laziness is probably part of it since they probably had some friend burn a CD for them with a bunch of emulators on it a decade ago. Also, see signature. :p


Okay, that's a pretty damn good reason to use it, but that's where it ends. What irks me is the super-inaccurate Sony SPC700 emulation. The fact I know how games are supposed to sound prevents me from using it; Square games sound atrocious, especially the sound effects. Mario's spin jump sound and warp pipe sounds are way off as well and sound nowhere near Snes9x's level of accuracy ever since Blaarg wrote his S-SMP emulator for Bsnes and Snes9x. Earthworm Jim 2 is another prime example, almost none of the sounds effects are there, or are partially there due to how the SPC700 streams audio data, and Zsnes sure as hell doesn't emulate that either. Neither does Clay Fighter 1 or 2, the voices are garbled and broken, but not in and don't sound the way they're supposed to.

Granted, Snes9x isn't 100% perfect either, but due to growing up with emulators and owning a real Snes, I know exactly how a real Snes is supposed to sound like. I can assure you that Zsnes is nowhere to what real hardware sounds like.

I'm tempted to record comparative samples to Blaarg's audio emulator core to Zsnes. I know I can't force people to change with something they're comfortable with, but I at least want to let people know what they're missing. There's no point in trying to convince others, but I want to educate them on other alternative methods of playing 16-bit games, and I will not try to force them to use Bsnes, I don't agree with Byuu at all.

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Last edited by nintendo_nerd on Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:37 pm
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
Haha, look at that guy shadowboxing with himself. Whoa, Zsnes' sound core is outdated, NEWS AT 11. Why are you writing paragraphs across multiple posts about something nobody even argued (nor will argue)?

paulguy wrote:
For "people who know what they're doing" you'll expect technical ability, however a lot of people just looking to make hacks unknowingly using patches that won't run on a SNES are potentially good at making levels and stuff. They're not really inclusive.
To me they're pretty inclusive. If a person can't figure out that it's bad to make a SNES hack that doesn't even work on a SNES, then why should I trust that person to make good decisions when it comes to constructing a video game level? Life is too short to play everything I want already, so I'm definitely not gonna rummage through SMW hacks from people without common sense.

(pretty late reply I know, but this thread got bumped and I happened to see it, so blah)

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Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:56 pm
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
nintendo_nerd wrote:
Mario's spin dash

What.

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Squall_Leonhart wrote:
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You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


KHDownloads


Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:01 am
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
blackmyst wrote:
Haha, look at that guy shadowboxing with himself. Whoa, Zsnes' sound core is outdated, NEWS AT 11. Why are you writing paragraphs across multiple posts about something nobody even argued (nor will argue)?

Take a look at the ROM hacking community as a whole, like Chrono Trigger hacks, the most recent one, Crimson Echoes, the authors state that it will only work on Zsnes and that it's the best emulator in existence. Why the hell would someone want to do that? There are also
those who use it because they can't tell a difference, but with the right sources, others could be educated

Gil_Hamilton wrote:
nintendo_nerd wrote:
Mario's spin dash

What.

This, surely you know the issue on Zsnes, Snes9x gets it right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEYdJ08c ... e=youtu.be

Well, if we're going to split hairs, I might as well sod off. Why did I join these forums again? I can't seem to recall, but I think it had to do with toast, or kittens, not sure.

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Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:15 am
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
nintendo_nerd wrote:
Why the cock-teasing then?

Because it's not fucking dead ?
Quote:
Why do people have false hope that someday there will be a Zsnes 2.0?

Because it's not false ?

nintendo_nerd wrote:
What irks me is the super-inaccurate Sony SPC700 emulation.

Yeah, fuck you. It was pretty awesome considering the state of things when it was written.

Quote:
ever since Blaarg wrote his S-SMP emulator for Bsnes and Snes9x

Blargg. He didn't write it for any emulator. Their devs just invested more time than we did in it. It sounds just as great in zsnes.
Too bad you don't have that version, huh ?

How 'bout that cocktease now. ¬_¬

Gil_Hamilton wrote:
nintendo_nerd wrote:
Mario's spin dash
What.

Yeah, I think it was bad irq timing fucking that one up.

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Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:10 am
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
nintendo_nerd wrote:
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
nintendo_nerd wrote:
Mario's spin dash

What.

This, surely you know the issue on Zsnes, Snes9x gets it right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEYdJ08c ... e=youtu.be

Mario DOES NOT HAVE A SPIN DASH.
SONIC THE HEDGEHOG has a spin dash.

And I've only played Mario World on real hardware. I've never heard whatever ZSNES does to the spin-jump sound.

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Squall_Leonhart wrote:
Quote:
You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


KHDownloads


Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:28 am
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Sir Robin the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot

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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
nintendo_nerd wrote:
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
nintendo_nerd wrote:
Mario's spin dash

What.

This, surely you know the issue on Zsnes, Snes9x gets it right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEYdJ08c ... e=youtu.be

Mario DOES NOT HAVE A SPIN DASH.
SONIC THE HEDGEHOG has a spin dash.

And I've only played Mario World on real hardware. I've never heard whatever ZSNES does to the spin-jump sound.


Derp. Fixed.

Anyway, compare the two and Super Mario World's sound effects, Zsnes is way off, Snes9x is spot on

Zsnes - Listen to the warp pipe sound at 0:41
http://www.mediafire.com/?kld2261vjd1zl0l

Snes9x - Listen to the warp pipe sound at 0:37
http://www.mediafire.com/?pbc4plz2pnnr035

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Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:44 am
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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
Mario DOES NOT HAVE A SPIN DASH.

hahahahahaha fuck me ;_;

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Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:33 pm
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Sir Robin the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot

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Post Re: ZSNES and SMW hacking
Now then....I beg you my leave.
Image

Well, at least you guys are being honest about it.

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Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:15 am
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