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So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh? 
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Buzzkill Gil

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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
Steve Jobs was almost certainly a sociopath.
So we deified him, played down any contributions anyone else might have made to his success, and produce completely fictional biography movies about him.

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Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:53 am
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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
Pirates of silicon valley?

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Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:36 am
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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
Steve Jobs was almost certainly a sociopath.
So we deified him, played down any contributions anyone else might have made to his success, and produce completely fictional biography movies about him.


From what I've heard about him(manipulative as all hell and incredibly charismatic among other things) he sounds like a sociopath, but it's impossible for people like us who never knew him to really know what he was like. I've never really followed Apple because I'm uninterested in their products, so I'm not the right person to make a case against Jobs. He could've just been so blinded by his own ambition that he ignored any and all moral values, but I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. It's unfortunate that celebrities get deified like that in general. I've never personally understood celeb worship and likely never will. Those who worship successful people definitely tend to omit the nastier details of their lives because some people want to believe that the people they worship were/are perfect. Celebrity worship is incomprehensible nonsense to me. It's one thing to respect someone's success, but worshiping clearly flawed figures is just dumb.

A large portion of successful business people became successful by being nasty, ruthless motherfuckers who mowed others down(and stole ideas) seemingly without remorse. I'm not even talking about Jobs or ANY specific person; it's just a nauseating fact of corporate culture.


Last edited by Yuber on Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:04 am
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Buzzkill Gil

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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
paulguy wrote:
Pirates of silicon valley?

Actually, I was thinking of the more recent "Jobs".
PoSV carries the Gates and Wozniak stamps of approval. Jobs was on record as hating it, but made no comments about the accuracy. There ARE errors, but on the whole it's apparently pretty faithful.


By contrast, the producers of Jobs wrote the script before consulting with anyone involved in the actual story, and some of the folks they DID attempt to consult with refused to have anything more to do with it after reading the first draft.

Wozniak asked them about the blatant errors in a script that "abhorred" him, and was told it was because "we aren't making a documentary."
Which is all that NEEDS saying. They weren't concerned with fact. Just glorifying the deceased CEO of a very popular company and making a shameless cash grab off his death. And if they have to run down everyone AROUND their hero to do it, and bless him with abilities he didn't actually have in life, then so be it.

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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
Wozniak asked them about the blatant errors in a script that "abhorred" him, and was told it was because "we aren't making a documentary."


Whoa. Do you have a link to the interview or article that came from?

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Buzzkill Gil

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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
Sadly, I can't seem to find it now.
It's all been pushed down by the "Wozniak saw it and didn't like it" articles.

Of which this is one.
http://gizmodo.com/jobs-reviewed-by-ste ... 1153771108



Fake edit:
Ah, here's one.
http://www.dawn.com/news/781413/apples- ... inaccurate
Apparently, they didn't direct the "not a documentary" comments directly TO Wozniak, and couched it in "well, who knows what ACTUALLY happened in those meetings" shit to make it sound like they did their best.
They very clearly didn't do their best. You don't write a script and THEN start calling the people that were there to see if they have any insights to offer.

My impression from what I'd read previously was that they actually had a face-to-face conversation, when it was two different monologues being stapled together by the press.


TEH WIKIZ has a few solid links on the more general case of "they done fucked up terribly", incidentally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_(film)#Wozniak.2C_Kottke.2C_Fernandez.2C_Espinosa.2C_and_Hertzfeld

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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
I haven't seen Pirates of Silicon Valley or Jobs so I can't comment on either movie.

Gil: What makes/made you think Jobs was a sociopath? I was never interested in Jobs or Apple for that matter, so I've never tried to analyze the guy. What specifically makes you think Jobs was a sociopath? I'm neutral on this issue(not enough info) but I'm interested in hearing what you know about him.

I suspect a very large percentage of big(especially multinational) corporate executives are sociopaths. I've heard rumors that some big companies actually seek out sociopathic personalities(for very high positions) because they're much less likely to become whistle blowers or have any moral issues even if X company is doing something really awful; sociopaths have no concept of moral values. They're able to kind of understand the concept of right/wrong from a purely rational, technical perspective but being emotionally dead prevents them from ever truly understanding moral issues. Moral issues have very large emotional components, namely(but not limited to) empathy. The sociopaths I've come across literally see people as objects, like NPCs in a video game that they can manipulate; it's SICK.

I'm not racist, sexist or any of that nonsense, but I AM bigoted against sociopaths. I know full-blown psychos can't help being emotionless, but their(generally) sick, manipulative and sadistic behavior disgusts me to no end. We really should pour lots of money into researching ASPD(and other mental illnesses) so we can eventually treat or possibly even cure sociopaths as well as other mental conditions. I'm bigoted against sociopaths specifically because while they can't help being emotionless, it's not like they're being forced to manipulate & torture people mentally and/or physically. However, I pity them because they're literally empty shells that are unable to have ANY emotional experiences, positive or negative. It's an awful condition unlike any other mental disorder. My bigotry comes from my belief that a significant portion of the world's suffering has been and is a result of sociopaths being in positions of power all around the world.


Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:36 am
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Buzzkill Gil

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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
Yuber wrote:
I haven't seen Pirates of Silicon Valley or Jobs so I can't comment on either movie.

Gil: What makes/made you think Jobs was a sociopath? I was never interested in Jobs or Apple for that matter, so I've never tried to analyze the guy. What specifically makes you think Jobs was a sociopath? I'm neutral on this issue(not enough info) but I'm interested in hearing what you know about him.

Well, there's the good old Breakout tale. That's a solid start.
When he was working for Atari, Nolan Bushnell assigned him the task of turning the Breakout concept into an arcade machine.
Jobs being unable to actually implement it, he asked his buddy Steve Wozniak to design it for him.
At the time, Atari offered a bonus for coming in under the target component count for a game. A rather lucrative bonus. Steve Jobs promised to split it 50/50 with Steve Wozniak.

Wozniak, being basically an electrical engineering GOD, came up with a design so simple that no one in Atari understood how it worked. But it was under the budget, and Jobs collected his $5000 bonus for coming in so far under budget.
True to his word, he went home and split the bonus straight down the middle with Woz. 350 for Woz, 350 for Jobs.
...
Yeah.

The worst part? Wozniak did it for fun, and would have let Jobs keep ALL the money if he'd asked.



There's also the time Jobs fathered a daughter out of wedlock and then told the courts he was sterile and COULDN'T be Lisa's father so he wouldn't have to pay child support and her mother would have to collect welfare checks from the state so she could afford to raise Lisa
This was AFTER Apple Computers had taken off, so it's not that he COULDN'T afford to pay Lisa's child support. He just didn't want to.

Coincidentally, the same year his daughter was born, his company began development of "the next big thing" to follow the Apple II line(and the failed Apple III business computer).
This new machine would be a revolutionary computer with a mouse for a pointing device, a high-resolution black+white screen, and a windowed graphical operating system. And they would call it the Macintosh. Because a MacIntosh is a kind of Apple, you see. It's a pun.
...
Naw, I'm just fuckin' with you. They actually called it the Lisa, for some obscure reason no one could ever quite pin down.
...
Yeah.


I could find more examples, but I think those two are a pretty solid case on their own.

Quote:
I'm bigoted against sociopaths specifically because while they can't help being emotionless, it's not like they're being forced to manipulate & torture people mentally and/or physically. However, I pity them because they're literally empty shells that are unable to have ANY emotional experiences, positive or negative. It's an awful condition unlike any other mental disorder. My bigotry comes from my belief that a significant portion of the world's suffering has been and is a result of sociopaths being in positions of power all around the world.

My understanding is it's not that they don't experience emotions, it's that they don't empathize with others. The sociopath's feelings are the only ones that matter.

Just screwed that guy out of his life savings? Well, he matters as much as the bird in your KFC bucket, and this chicken is DELICIOUS, so who cares how it got to you?

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Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:48 am
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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
Seriously, why the fuck are chickens so good.

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Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:28 pm
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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
Thanks for the examples Gil, and Jobs most definitely sounds like a sociopath although we'll never truly know. Woz sounds like a really nice guy, ie a perfect person for a sociopath to take advantage of because the sociopath(Jobs in this case) knew Woz wouldn't hold it against him. I prefer the "take out into a back alley and beat the fuck out of them" method when it comes to dealing with people who rip me off. If I can't get away with that, I'll find another way to get revenge. I'm overly emotional/get angry too easily, so I'm the polar opposite of a sociopath. Jobs definitely seems to exhibit sociopathic tendencies, but not knowing him personally makes it impossible to know for sure. I'd be kinda surprised if he wasn't one, though. The part about his daughter is sickening, and I hope she's doing alright.

I suppose borderline cases are able to experience emotion when it comes to themselves, but I think that mostly applies to more(comparatively) mild narcissistic types rather than 100% full blown psychos. More extreme cases ARE completely emotionless; I've met a few of them. Their "emotional responses" were incredibly contrived and they only pretended to show emotion when it was to their advantage. They even had fake laughs they'd use to appear normal in social situations.(think Romney's creepy fake laugh). I'm not claiming Romney's a sociopath, although it wouldn't surprise me. My point is, people with more extreme cases of ASPD really are emotionless. It's incredibly unsettling to be around people like that because they will take any opportunity they can find to fuck with you/manipulate you. Plus, they're just flat out creepy.


Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:51 am
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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
Yuber wrote:
The part about his daughter is sickening, and I hope she's doing alright.

It's okay. Time did an expose on Steve Jobs in the 90s, and when he was through ranting and raving at the guy that confirmed for them that he HAD a daughter, he "reconnected" with her while she was in high school and paid her way through Harvard.
Having an image to maintain does wonders for a man.

Beyond that, I dunno.
Wikipedia's article about Lisa Brennan-Jobs is WAY shorter than their article about Lisa the failed proto-Mac(or any OTHER Apple-related product), and I wasn't going to rampage the entire internet looking into her personal life.

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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
If I were her, I'd want as little recognition as humanly possible. I personally dislike getting lots of attention even if it's positive. Sociopaths are notorious for being attention whores. Because more extreme cases actually have to manually develop fake personas in order to appear normal, many of them are very good at controlling things like public images. I think it's cool that by being exposed, he was basically forced to pay for her education. I hope she's not too much like her father. I know there are plenty of deadbeat parents out there, but it absolutely sickens me that Jobs, who clearly had enough money to support her, didn't even TRY to support her until he got his sleazy ass exposed. While we'll never know for sure, the shit you mentioned certainly sounds like sociopathic behavior.

I'm not an expert(nor am I a psychologist or psychiatrist) but most of the times I've talked to psychs about ASPD, I had to teach THEM about it; disgraceful. I'm not the bragging type, but I know my shit when it comes to ASPD because I've both studied it for years and have years of personal experience dealing with sociopaths. Having some mental issues myself(anxiety/anger related), it surprised me at first just how incompetent most psychologists & psychiatrists were/are. I've only met a few that even knew what they were talking about. When I, an amateur who studies some aspects of psychology knows more than a full blown shrink, it disturbs me. Many shrinks are just pill-pushers/legalized drug dealers that are often paid by pharmaceutical companies to prescribe certain drugs. Mental health problems are often neglected in this country, unfortunately. Prisons are the largest "mental health institutions" in the US and that's absolutely disgraceful.

I thought I'd get more sympathetic the more I learned about them, but their sick behavior makes it incredibly hard for me to feel bad for them. All evidence points to(full-blown) sociopaths being a genetic condition. Neurologically, the only thing I've read is that sociopaths' amygdalas are either damaged or even non functional in very extreme cases. The amygdala controls the fight or flight response(as well as other emotional responses), so deficits in that part of the brain are part of why full-blown sociopaths can't feel fear, empathy etc. This is pure memorization(haven't looked anything up) so the genetic & neurological stuff is incredibly oversimplified. Sociopathic behavior can sometimes be "learned" when people experience traumatic events, and my guess is that many borderline cases of ASPD are non-genetic or at least more nurture than nature. I DO feel bad for those people.


Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:39 am
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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
grinvader wrote:
Seriously, why the fuck are chickens so good.

Because everything else tastes like them. They are the one TRUE flavor, everything else is a mere shadow on the tastebuds.

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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
If dinosaurs were still alive today, they'd probably taste like poultry. Dinosaurs evolved into birds, and I've heard that the T-Rex's closest(currently living) relative is the chicken. I've heard that some dinosaur fossils that've been found actually contained small amounts of soft tissue; how is that possible? Here's an article about soft tissue in dino fossils. That's just a random article I found in a few seconds; I have no idea whether the mystery of how soft tissue could be present in 65+ million year old fossils has been solved. I've even heard DNA from a T-Rex fossil has been isolated; that's insanely cool if true. I'm out of my element on this issue big time, but how is it possible that soft tissue WITH DNA could still exist in such old fossils? Shows how little even experts know about the process of fossilization.

If the Tyrannosaurus Rex had feathers, they must've been incredibly funny looking in a scary way. I certainly wouldn't wanna be chased by a giant angry carnivorous chicken. You guys talking about things tasting like chicken made me think of dinosaurs. I've never had frog legs(would love to try them) but they apparently taste like chicken too.


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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
from what I've heard all birds evolved from raptors.
back on topic.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/01/10/oculu ... -ces-2014/
now has upper body tracking.

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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
Yuber wrote:
I've heard that some dinosaur fossils that've been found actually contained small amounts of soft tissue; how is that possible? Here's an article about soft tissue in dino fossils. That's just a random article I found in a few seconds; I have no idea whether the mystery of how soft tissue could be present in 65+ million year old fossils has been solved.

You're misunderstanding the problem.
Soft tissue has not been found. FOSSILIZED soft tissue has been fou- oh, never mind.
This is the first I've heard of this. Fascinating.
If it's legit, it's incredible. I admit to being skeptical, but withhold judgement.

I am, however, particularly interested in what lead Dr. Schweitzer to the rather jarring conclusion that she needed to throw a fossilized T. Rex leg in a jar of vinegar in the first place. What led her to believe there was anything to be gained from this action, as opposed to just destroying a fossil?


Quote:
I'm out of my element on this issue big time, but how is it possible that soft tissue WITH DNA could still exist in such old fossils? Shows how little even experts know about the process of fossilization.

If soft tissue survives, I would expect DNA to be present.

I'd take these findings with a grain of salt.
I do not discount the possibility, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.


Quote:
If the Tyrannosaurus Rex had feathers, they must've been incredibly funny looking in a scary way.

Maybe it was just a CREST of feathers.
Imagine an angry T. Rex with a mohawk. It looks angrier now. :P

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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
megamanzer0 wrote:
from what I've heard all birds evolved from raptors.
back on topic.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/01/10/oculu ... -ces-2014/
now has upper body tracking.

Pretty cool. People with heightened balance/visual sensitivity like that guy are great for guinea pi^W^Wtest subjec^W^Wimproving the technology up to seamless immersion level.

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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
grinvader wrote:
megamanzer0 wrote:
from what I've heard all birds evolved from raptors.
back on topic.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/01/10/oculu ... -ces-2014/
now has upper body tracking.

Pretty cool. People with heightened balance/visual sensitivity like that guy are great for guinea pi^W^Wtest subjec^W^Wimproving the technology up to seamless immersion level.

WHERE IS MY NEURAL INTERFACE? IT'S THE GOD-DAMNED TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY!

More seriously: " I hear a crash from the television speakers and the screen goes black. "
Why does this thing not have integrated speakers? I can see them being optional, but really, shouldn't the soundstage be similarly anchored to your head in the first-person games the Rift is intended for?

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You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
Yuber wrote:
If dinosaurs were still alive today, they'd probably taste like poultry. Dinosaurs evolved into birds, and I've heard that the T-Rex's closest(currently living) relative is the chicken.
Avialae is the one branch of dinosauria that survived. T-rex wasn't part of it and doesn't have any extant (or even extinct) ancestors so saying one bird is a closer relative to it than any other doesn't make a lot of sense taxonomically. A bit like saying one of your cousins is a closer relative than any of its siblings.

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Johan: That's just a rumor I heard somewhere. As I said earlier, I'm VERY out of my element when it comes to paleontology and the vast majority of my posts are just rumors, theories and other things I've memorized(other than the article). I enjoy seeing how far I can get in debates with zero or VERY minimal research.

Gil: IF the soft tissue finding is legit and is proven definitively, scientists would have to completely re-evaluate the process of fossilization, or at least parts of it. I'm skeptical too, but the implications if true are pretty astounding. You're right that being skeptical is essential though; even experienced scientists fall into "wanting to believe" in evidence that seems impossible. Unrelated, but string/M theory falls into that category of a lot of physicists wanting to believe in it despite things like superstrings, membranes & alternate dimensions being(currently) impossible to even study. String/M theory kinda seems like a combination of science & faith. Michio Kaku(one good example of this) sounds more like a preacher than a physicist when he discusses string theory.

Sometimes even if very old soft tissue is found, the DNA is so old that it's degraded and/or contaminated to the point of being almost impossible to isolate, iirc. Maybe that problem has been minimized in the last decade; I dunno. If by some small chance soft tissue WAS found in a 65+ MILLION year old fossil, the chances of there being any good DNA are very small. IIRC, wasn't even Neanderthal DNA incredibly hard to isolate in any complete form? As usual, some of this post may be inaccurate since I'm posting this straight from my head without using any outside sources.

/off topic
While I'm not a fan of motion controls when they're applied to "traditional" consoles, they're the only way to make VR feel even remotely realistic. Graphics are quickly becoming closer and closer to photo-realistic. That combined with incredibly accurate motion controls & games designed around VR headsets, the immersion potential is practically limitless. I think there's a place for PCs, home consoles, handhelds, AND VR. It's exciting to watch VR finally come into its own; this aint no Virtual Boy. If a VR experience is REALLY immersive, taking the headset off may cause some disorientation.(wild guess)

I'm gonna wait for various kinks to be worked out & for more dedicated VR games to come out, but I'd love to give VR a try. Sorry Gil; the VB doesn't count :lol: It took some serious balls on Gunpei Yokoi's(had to rook that upu) & Nintendo's part to release the VB though. Same goes for the Wii, which substituted unique controls for raw power.


Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:10 pm
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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
Yuber wrote:
Sometimes even if very old soft tissue is found, the DNA is so old that it's degraded and/or contaminated to the point of being almost impossible to isolate, iirc.

Okay, yeah, let me rephrase.
I meant there would be SOME DNA, not that there would be complete solid strings of the stuff.


Quote:
I'm gonna wait for various kinks to be worked out & for more dedicated VR games to come out, but I'd love to give VR a try. Sorry Gil; the VB doesn't count :lol: It took some serious balls on Gunpei Yokoi's(had to rook that upu) & Nintendo's part to release the VB though. Same goes for the Wii, which substituted unique controls for raw power.

Oh, the VB definitely isn't a virtual reality rig. It's still pretty cool, though. And I wish Nintendo had had the balls to leave it alone and let Yokoi finish it.

Now they have Miyamoto publicly trash-talking the VB... or not. As always, Wikipedia misquotes their sources. He likes the Veeb and thinks Nintendo failed the hardware.
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interview ... s-made/0/1
I will like it because it's actually a very interesting read.

Tangentally, Nintendo MENTIONS Yokoi in that article, which is surprising in and of itself. But they downplay his involvements in their historical "who the fuck is that" footnote.
"4. Gunpei Yokoi (1941-1997): While at Nintendo, he played a central role in developing such products as the Game ™Watch handheld electronic games, the Game Boy™ handheld system, R.O.B. (Robotic Operating Buddy), and the game Dr. Mario™."
It's framed to make it sound like Doctor Mario was the only game he was involved with, or at least his most important one. I mean, it's not like he created Metroid, or that Mario Bros and Donkey Kong only exist due to his influence*.


*Donkey Kong was only put into production due to Yokoi's very vocal approval, and Mario Bros wouldn't be multiplayer or let Mario fall from the top of the screen without dying without Yokoi bugging Miyamoto. We'll avoid the larger debate of how much of good game design Miyamoto learned from his mentor and how much he came by on his own.

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Post Re: So how about that there VIRTUAL REALITY stuff huh?
I'm unfamiliar with the VB's development, but Yokoi should get a lot more credit for his creative vision. I've read that he was at least partially Miyamoto's mentor, so he really should give Yokoi as much credit as possible. If he hadn't created the GB, Nintendo wouldn't have NEARLY as much cash as they do now and you could argue that the DS and 3DS would've never existed. Handheld sales are serving as a cushion for the bad sales of the Wii U.

As flawed as they are, Nintendo is the only remaining member of the "big 3" that makes(mostly) dedicated gaming HW & because of that I want them to succeed. I hope they don't start charging for online play like MS & Sony; I HATE that business practice. My last Nintendo system was the N64, but the only currently announced game I'm interested in is X for the Wii U. If it turns out to be a SP, story based JRPG I may buy a Wii U just for that one game.(and pick up MK, Smash & SM3DW as well) I respect Nintendo for doing their own thing and, for the most part, not caving to outside pressure.

I wonder what Yokoi's complete vision would've looked and played like? Yokoi being blamed for the VB's failure seems profoundly unfair, especially considering how successful his Gameboy was. Firing a creative genius because of one mistake that wasn't even entirely his fault was fucking stupid. I've heard a full-color display would've been way too expensive and that Nintendo used very cheap parts for the VB in general, but Wikipedia isn't exactly reliable so I don't know. From what you've said, it seems like Nintendo didn't really TRY to make the VB a success.


Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:49 am
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