Another "sound rape" bug in FF VI (in Thamasa)

Joe Camacho · Post by **Joe Camacho** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:29 am

Couldn't you just use a spare nintendo RCA cable connector and hook up a SNES to a soundcard that has the necessary jacks? I mean, you can use the cable froma N64 or a NGC. You might still need a FF3 cartridge, or copier.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:32 am

2 x rca => 3.5mm adapter is all thats rquired to record sound from snes to pc.

Post by **pagefault** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:36 pm

byuu wrote:
What evidence do you have to base your opinion on this.
You ask as if anyone ever has any ... :/
Need to get a new sticky topic for sound problems and post some schematics to rip digital sound from the SNES and require comparison files to be posted to acknowledge bugs.

Speaking of which, anyone have info on how to capture output from the DSP before it reaches the DAC? It would be extremely beneficial if us devs could get a couple systems with this ability. I've yet to even find a pinout of the DSP.

I say this because the last dozen times I have received bugs like this they have not been bugs and I have wasted my time making recordings of said sounds. I really don't have time to waste on these things.I have said again and again. Don't compare to other emulators. If one person is making an mistake and someone feels it sounds more "correct" based on what they remember about the game then we are never going to fix anything. I would rather have a copy of the genuine sound so I can verify there is a problem to begin with before I try to break the code to sound the way someone thinks it should sound.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:11 pm

I totally agree with you, which is why it should be a requirement to get digital captures of sounds to report bugs, except maybe in obvious cases like EWJ2, or where there's no sound at all.
I don't think capturing the fuzzy analog sound through the line-in of a low end sound card would be as good for trying to copy the sound.

Post by **pagefault** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:33 pm

I agree. My sound card is probably capped at 48khz input at well so any recordings I make aren't going to be the best of quality. I might do the SPDIF mod as I do have SPDIF input on my card. It will involve ruining my SNES probably but I guess all in the name of emulation. There are obvious problems with the sounds, I should make a thread with what is known so these aren't reposted.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:53 pm

If you figure it out, please let me know. I don't know anything about soldering so I can't follow Anti-resonance's tutorial.

The pinout thing is especially vague. One pin is listed, and then there are 11 pins of the CS8405A that are listed without mentioning what they get connected to, and they're all out of order >_<

Bahamut_ZERO_Clue · Post by **Bahamut_ZERO_Clue** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:54 am

SP/DIF would give good audio but what about Digital Optical instead or would that be impossible on that old of a unit?

Reznor007 · Post by **Reznor007** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:04 am

Here's how I understand it:

Connect +5VDC to:
S-DSP 33 (for older 2 chip APU systems)
S-APU 3 (for newer single chip APU systems)
CS8405A 1,2,3,4,5,6,11,20,23,24,27

Connect ground to:
S-DSP 52 (for older 2 chip APU systems)
S-APU 95 (for newer single chip APU systems)
CS8405A 7,8,10,16,17,18,19,22,28

Connect the following:
S-DSP 47(or S-APU 16) to CS8405A 9
S-DSP 43(or S-APU 94) to CS8405A 12
S-DSP 42(or S-APU 92) to CS8405A 13
S-DSP 44(or S-APU 93) to CS8405A 14
S-DSP 78(or S-APU 52) to CS8405A 21

Not connected pins on CS8405A 15,25

Output: CS8405A 26

If I could get a hold of a CS8405A I would do this right away. It's actually a pretty easy mod if you have decent soldering skills.

Reznor007 · Post by **Reznor007** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:05 am

Bahamut_ZERO_939 wrote:SP/DIF would give good audio but what about Digital Optical instead or would that be impossible on that old of a unit?

This mod will allow for coaxial or optical. You can connect a toslink transmitter directly to the output of the encoder chip, or use a resistor to use coaxial.

EDIT-for what it's worth, optical and coax give identical sound quality as they are both digitally sending the same data.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:00 am

What do you solder the CS output to? Do you just buy a little S/PDIF cable and cut the end off and connect it to that?

Connect +5VDC to:
S-DSP 33 (for older 2 chip APU systems)
S-APU 3 (for newer single chip APU systems)
CS8405A 1,2,3,4,5,6,11,20,23,24,27

So what, I solder S-DSP 33 to 11 different pins on the CS chip? I don't understand this shit at all >_<

S-DSP 33 looks like it's going to CS 1, and all the other ones aren't listed at all what they connect to. Where are +5VDC and ground coming from?

FitzRoy · Post by **FitzRoy** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:18 am

byuu wrote:http://alpha-ii.com/Info/snes-spdif.html

There we go. Heh, I might just try this. I can spare a $3 SNES or two

I think I've mentioned several times that I have an snes with this mod performed, optical output. I can record some digital bit-perfect wavs (32khz of course) and post them for people in a week. I don't have the system on hand right now, but I can get it. I don't have my copier anymore, but I have several carts that begin with good examples of sound rape.

Castlevania IV (lightning and bats in intro)
Zelda (rain)
Chrono Trigger (intro shifts, etc)

I'd use star fox, too, but obviously, I can't.

If you manage to do the mod yourself, then it's all gravy and I'll refrain.

Anyone know if recording digital source from sndrec32.exe bypasses the kmixer? Do I have to use an ASIO program or something? I want these recordings to be undoubtedly clean. Because if you record at a higher frequency or let kmixer touch it, it will make any objective comparison pointless.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:54 am

Well, we know the SPC doesn't run at 32khz, it runs a little faster or slower (usually faster), so unfortunately we won't be able to hex compare the two to match the output bit-for-bit, but still, we can at least measure the waveform for clipping/clamping errors and the like.

So perhaps you can give me a detailed explanation of how you performed this mod? :D
Keeping in mind I've never successfully soldered anything in my life :/
Or maybe I can just buy a modded SNES off someone, hmm... I'd probably want it to be RGB modded too, just in case I ever want that for video testing.

FitzRoy · Post by **FitzRoy** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:03 am

Ah, well that's unfortunate. The wavs still might reveal some things.

I can't give you any advice on the mod, because I didn't do it. The Alpha-ii guy did.

If you want, I could loan it to you. It's one of those yellow-immune sneses, too. *unf unf*

You would need an optical input. If all you have is coaxial, you would need an optical/coaxial adapter. I have one of those, too if you need it.

kode54 · Post by **kode54** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:32 am

That should be fine, but good luck finding something that can just capture raw samples according to the source clock, rather than at its own fixed sample rate. Hmm...

Andreas_N · Post by **Andreas_N** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:36 am

pagefault wrote:I say this because the last dozen times I have received bugs like this they have not been bugs and I have wasted my time making recordings of said sounds. I really don't have time to waste on these things.I have said again and again. Don't compare to other emulators. If one person is making an mistake and someone feels it sounds more "correct" based on what they remember about the game then we are never going to fix anything. I would rather have a copy of the genuine sound so I can verify there is a problem to begin with before I try to break the code to sound the way someone thinks it should sound.

Hey, if it's that difficult, please don't waste your time with it. I just wanted to help, but it seems I only caused trouble instead. Sorry for that. It seemed like a good idea to compare with several other good emulators that have good sound, but you are right of course.

Unfortunately, I can't provide a recording of a real SNES right now. I'll try to do an analog recording (which, although it's not the best option, it might still help) and then come back.

byuu wrote:http://alpha-ii.com/Info/snes-spdif.html

Since I haven't touched a soldering iron before (and I don't know where I find that digital transmitter), I doubt I'll do this ... then again, it may be a good opportunity to learn soldering, but I can't promise anything. I'll make the analog recording first, in case the modification doesn't work.

Reznor007 · Post by **Reznor007** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:17 pm

byuu wrote:What do you solder the CS output to? Do you just buy a little S/PDIF cable and cut the end off and connect it to that?

Connect +5VDC to:
S-DSP 33 (for older 2 chip APU systems)
S-APU 3 (for newer single chip APU systems)
CS8405A 1,2,3,4,5,6,11,20,23,24,27
So what, I solder S-DSP 33 to 11 different pins on the CS chip? I don't understand this shit at all >_<

S-DSP 33 looks like it's going to CS 1, and all the other ones aren't listed at all what they connect to. Where are +5VDC and ground coming from?

No, you just find a 5V source on the board somewhere and connect it to all of these pins(some are for power, some are for setting certain bits high). Do the same for the ground connection(provides electrical ground and sets other bits low).

For the output you can buy a toslink transmitter and connect that directly to the output pin, or if you want to use a coax cable you must put a 330 ohm resistor in line with the output, and directly after the resistor add a 91 ohm resistor that is connected to a ground, and connect the coax cable to the end of the 330 ohm resistor. There is a basic schematic of this on the bottom of the page if you understand schematics.

EDIT-The pins of the APU that connect to the CS chip directly are for the master clock, sample bit clock, left/right sample clock, reset, and the actual data line.

Dmog · Post by **Dmog** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:00 pm

Hey, if it's that difficult, please don't waste your time with it. I just wanted to help, but it seems I only caused trouble instead. Sorry for that. It seemed like a good idea to compare with several other good emulators that have good sound, but you are right of course.

I don't think there was anything worth flamming you to be honest. Not sure why pagefault and others are getting so defensive, I mean, you'd think that by now it's no big secret anymore that (quote) "z.nes" sound like cr@p...

And Square rape is just a emu-kiddy nonsense buzz word for "Zsnes is extremely innacurate"

(And yes I realise this post might very well piss the mods off but meh)

Pheeeeeww....Look it all them' bug reports... You'd think it would make more sense (not to mention save time) to just take a few emu authors and just rewrote from scratch that big mess of a hackish-code-on-top-of-hackish-code that's Z.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:35 pm

Dmog wrote:
Hey, if it's that difficult, please don't waste your time with it. I just wanted to help, but it seems I only caused trouble instead. Sorry for that. It seemed like a good idea to compare with several other good emulators that have good sound, but you are right of course.
I don't think there was anything worth flamming you to be honest. Not sure why pagefault and others are getting so defensive, I mean, you'd think that by now it's no big secret anymore that (quote) "z.nes" sound like cr@p...

And Snes9x is any better? You're totally kidding me.

And Square rape is just a emu-kiddy nonsense buzz word for "Zsnes is extremely innacurate"

(And yes I realise this post might very well piss the mods off but meh)

Pheeeeeww....Look it all them' bug reports... You'd think it would make more sense (not to mention save time) to just take a few emu authors and just rewrote from scratch that big mess of a hackish-code-on-top-of-hackish-code that's Z.

You make it sound like it's so easy, why don't you do that yourself?

Dmog · Post by **Dmog** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:35 pm

Deathlike2 wrote:
Dmog wrote:
Hey, if it's that difficult, please don't waste your time with it. I just wanted to help, but it seems I only caused trouble instead. Sorry for that. It seemed like a good idea to compare with several other good emulators that have good sound, but you are right of course.
I don't think there was anything worth flamming you to be honest. Not sure why pagefault and others are getting so defensive, I mean, you'd think that by now it's no big secret anymore that (quote) "z.nes" sound like cr@p...
And Snes9x is any better? You're totally kidding me.

Where did you saw any mentions of 9x in my post? For the record Snes9x is pretty crappy....well let's just say it's a first (or second) generation Snes emu that hasn't evolved.

What's the difference between Zsnes/Snes9x and say Mame? They're almost as old but Mame has and continues to 'evolve'.

Since it's creation Mame has always allows significant changes to it's basic components (like timing system) because it's code is malleable.

You make it sound like it's so easy, why don't you do that yourself?

Not 'easy'. But probably easi'er' than trying to manually fix all the individual game bugs (all 10948 of em') instead of just rewritting the whole mess. It...also just makes more 'sense' you know but whatever.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:59 pm

Dmog wrote:What's the difference between Zsnes/Snes9x and say Mame? They're almost as old but Mame has and continues to 'evolve'.

Since it's creation Mame has always allows significant changes to it's basic components (like timing system) because it's code is malleable.

Methinks you clearly don't understand anything about coding.

Not 'easy'. But probably easi'er' than trying to manually fix all the individual game bugs (all 10948 of em') instead of just rewritting the whole mess. It...also just makes more 'sense' you know but whatever.

Do you realize how much time would be required just for doing that? Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was ZSNES.

KingHanco · Post by **KingHanco** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:59 pm

I hate to break this up about Mame. It been rewritten so many times over the years. Don't say it haven't because it have as far I seen the source updates and rewritten by AaronGiles and other people.

ZSNES is the best one there is right now. I been using it more than any other snes programs out there. I don't even touch the bsnes anymore. But every once a while I do pickup the bsnes when a game isn't working right on the ZSNES. Who cares it been rewritten so many times anyway. Infact they least still working on it rather than quit working on it and ban it. Just face it. We love it and that all it count. If there some games problems then try another game or use the bsnes.

Post by **pagefault** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:09 pm

Lets clairfy some things:

1) "Square rape" is not a technical term nor is it a feature of emulation or the original system. What is refered to as "sqaure rape" is referring to how the audio output is wrong but does not necessarily mean something is wrong with the emulation of it. The output code has bugs in it, it is not perfect and it will be fixed in due time.

2) ZSNES has evolved, we are constantly rewriting the code in ZSNES and fixing problems as we come across them, if you don't call this evolution then well, thats a whole other topic. If you are going to compare things, at least know what you are talking about to begin with.

3) It's also a lot easier for compatibility in games in MAME because you only support games that you know, there is no X factor. Not to mention a system may have only a dozen games or so, thats a lot easier to test and find bugs than a catalog of over 3000+ games like on the SNES. (Just so I don't get flamed later this was in no way anything against the MAME project).

4) You are testing with a WIP, unless you have been living under a rock for the last few years you would know that this means it is incomplete code, so if you find a bug it's probably because it's an unfinished feature. Why do you think we have not released in such a long time. As of this writing we will be re-evaluating our WIP release process since people don't seem to get the idea that WIP really means work in progress.

And finally, if you don't like it don't use it or fix it yourself. This is what the spirit of open source is about. And yes, I will be defensive because we have a lot of talented people who put hours of their time into this project, if you can't appreciate that then I suggest you post your comments elsewhere or simply not use the software at all.

Dmog · Post by **Dmog** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:25 pm

Deathlike2 wrote:
Dmog wrote:What's the difference between Zsnes/Snes9x and say Mame? They're almost as old but Mame has and continues to 'evolve'.

Since it's creation Mame has always allows significant changes to it's basic components (like timing system) because it's code is malleable.
Methinks you clearly don't understand anything about coding.

Methinks it's easy to just throw random accusations. But you're wrong anyway.

Do you realize how much time would be required just for doing that?

No. I'm afraid I don't. But please 'do' tell me how much decades it would take to write a completely new emu from scratch ("Zsnes2" or whatever)...

Bsnes is 1.5years old if I'm not mistaken and has been written almost solely by Byuu alone. Now of course, Byuu had the advantage of starting in 2004 and not in 1997 aka "Stone age". But you'd think that if say...five people started to work on it, it could be done in a year or so.

But I guess I'm wrong heh. (you can quote that if you want)

Dmog · Post by **Dmog** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:12 am

pagefault wrote:Lets clairfy some things:

1) "Square rape" is not a technical term nor is it a feature of emulation or the original system.

Thank you.

3) It's also a lot easier for compatibility in games in MAME because you only support games that you know, there is no X factor.

Dunno what you meant here. When an arcade board gets dumped, it gets added to the corresponding driver in Mame (providing one actually exist) and most often then not, it works off the bat.

Not to mention a system may have only a dozen games or so, thats a lot easier to test and find bugs than a catalog of over 3000+ games like on the SNES

Let's use Kega Fusion as an example then.

And finally, if you don't like it don't use it or fix it yourself. This is what the spirit of open source is about. And yes, I will be defensive because we have a lot of talented people who put hours of their time into this project, if you can't appreciate that then I suggest you post your comments elsewhere or simply not use the software at all.

For the record,no I haven't used Z for well over a year.
I'm saying that talent and hours(capital S) spend could be used more efficently. Refering to a complete rewrite.

And you still can't admit that Zsnes's code is a b$tch...
Are you telling me that I'm wrong if I think that some programs allows for easy changes while others makes it almost impossible because of the way they where originally programmed?

Clements · Post by **Clements** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:29 am

Dmog, we're really not interested.