I'm asking nicely.............

FistOfFury · Post by **FistOfFury** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:34 am

about the netplay desyncs in the WIP versions of ZSNES. I just used 1.40 RC1 with some people, and we kept getting constant desyncs. I know for a fact that it's not my fault, because I have never ever ever ever experienced desyncs with 1.36 of zsnes. And the same with the other person(s). I also used the 10/24 WIP with someone a while back, and we kept getting desyncs, and we both never get desyncs with 1.36 (it's someone I play with regularly). I believe this is a longstanding "bug", because this happens with all the WIP's I have tried in the past.

I also noticed a thread that Nach put up recently, saying that 1.40 will have netplay support that will be able to connect both windows and linux machines, and that people should get ready with their linux netplay meeting clients. Well, IMHO, what is the point of doing all that if ZSNES won't even let you play due to the fact that it keeps desyncing, or did I totally misunderstand the topic, and he was talking about fixing the netplay desyncs?

So, I'm asking nicely, if this desyncing thing will be fixed (I'm assuming it will? This is a critical bug IMHO, the netplay feature is a really popular feature, and I know that alot of people only really use zsnes because of the fact that it has netplay.....), is there an ETA, or if it's on the TODO list? Thanks in advance for any info.

And as per the bug reporting rules sticky, IMHO, there's no point in giving you info about my system or the roms, because it happens with all of the roms I have tried, and I'm not the only one experiencing this, so I highly doubt it's the roms or my system specs, but if I'm wrong, then please tell me so that I can then post the specs. Thanks in advance.

snkcube · Post by **snkcube** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:38 am

I remember reading about WIP versions having trouble with netplay, but I thought the ZSNES team fixed it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Post by **Nach** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:58 am

Without specifiying wether you used TCP or UDP, what level latency, and some ideas of the games you've been playing, I can't help you.

ReRuss · Post by **ReRuss** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:48 am

I havn't tried any WIPs online , but I always used 1.337 for netplay , syncs up faster , though when I was playin online I was playin Zelda (took turns) and with some dial up users.

I have heard desyncs with WIPs , but maybe it'll be worked on soon.

Post by **grinvader** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:58 am

Someone wrote:there's only so much you can expect of netplay :/

The author will remain anonymous unless he wants his name known.

FistOfFury · Post by **FistOfFury** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:24 pm

I too thought that I remember reading that the desyncs were fixed, but alas, I don't think they are anymore, maybe some weird bug has creeped unnoticed into one of the previous WIP release and now we got desync galore again. Last night when I was testing some fighting games on RC1, it was basically unplayable, constant desyncs in every match/every 1 or 2 rounds. Strangely, transfering a save state would fix the problem, but then it would desync again after a couple rounds.

Nach wrote:Without specifiying wether you used TCP or UDP, what level latency, and some ideas of the games you've been playing, I can't help you.

I've tried mainly UDP, and latencies of 3 and 1. I do not get desyncs in 1.36 with either UDP, TCP, or latencies of 1 and 3. It only happens with all the WIP's I've tried. And It happens on both my blazingly fast cable modem and 56K dialup ISP connections. And like I said, it's not just me, it happens to other people I know, they tell me they experience the same thing under the same settings, constant desyncs with the WIP's, but when they go in 1.36, they don't experience desync, so it's not an isolated case.

Now, if I were to put a list up of all the specific games I played in netplay under the WIP's then I couldn't tell ya lol cuz it's been so many over the vast period of time that the WIP's have been out. Ok, I'll try to remember a small handfull of some off the top of my head, but it's early morning and I'm suffering from a small case of insomnia, so here is my best try:

Soldiers of Fortune
Super Fire Pro Wrestling X Premium
Astral Bout 3
Metal Warriors
Super Street Fighter 2
Street Fighter Alpha 2
Mortal Kombat 2
Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3
DBZ HD
Killer Instinct
Super Tetris 3
Tetris Attack
The Great Battle 4
Sunset Riders
Contra 3
and alot more that I can't really remember at this moment, most likely either sports games, platformers, or some other fighting games, but I really don't see what specific games has anything to do with it.

Post by **Nach** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:28 pm

See what happens when using only TCP, UDP is bound to desync.

I spent close to an hour playing SFA2 with grinvader via TCP and we didn't have any desyncs.

ReRuss · Post by **ReRuss** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:29 pm

FistOfFury wrote: blazingly fast cable

Define...

3mb down?
256k up?

FistOfFury · Post by **FistOfFury** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:42 pm

I have not further tested TCP, but I just gotta say one thing - IIRC, never, in my 3+ year ZSNES netplaying career with the 1.36 and lower versions, have I experienced desyncs with UDP, and I play ALOT, almost everyday for an hour or couple hours sometimes. Now with these WIP's I hear people left and right saying that it gives them desyncs. So, something has drastically changed with the UDP portion of the WIP's that causes constant desyncs, far more then the usual "bound to happen" desync cases. IMHO, it should be fixed, instead of having to resort to TCP only, and plus it singles out the people that cannot play on TCP for whatever specific reason, like their router/firewall refuses TCP protocol, and also the poor people on 56K - I hear 56K is lag city with TCP, I've experienced it a couple times myself. EDIT: And also because some people, including me, just prefer UDP over TCP, I hear UDP gives better response time on latency 1 for fighting games.

Post by **grinvader** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:12 pm

FistOfFury wrote:I do not get desyncs in 1.36 with either UDP, TCP, or latencies of 1 and 3. It only happens with all the WIP's I've tried. And It happens on both my blazingly fast cable modem and 56K dialup ISP connections. And like I said, it's not just me, it happens to other people I know, they tell me they experience the same thing under the same settings, constant desyncs with the WIP's, but when they go in 1.36, they don't experience desync, so it's not an isolated case.

If you have some time, please define the exact WIP in which these frequent UDP desyncs first happened.
In the very first WIP (2003 March 4th) or in a later one ? Go to ipher's site, download all the wips for your port, put them in separate directories, and test them with someone who did the same thing. You should test netplaying with same version on both sides, just in case.

FistOfFury · Post by **FistOfFury** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:03 pm

I did some more thinking. Something is wrong with the WIP UDP, I refuse to believe it's something that can be chalked up to the "bound to happen" thing. Something was done to the WIP's that changed the UDP part of the program, either directly or indirectly, which makes it pretty much useless due to all the above normal amount of desyncs (if there even is a normal amount to begin with, because like I said, I and MANY other people have never seen a desync before and were using the same connection we've always had) on above average or even almost perfect line, or even perfect line. For those types of lines, I can understand a desync like once a week (if there is such a thing), but every single time after every match or three in street fighter? C'mon......something is obviously wrong IMHO. ALOT of times, TCP response time is unplayable with 56k depending on who you play, I've heard this from many people, and I've also experienced it myself. At least with UDP you could get away with alot of times, connections that almost look like broadband connection on latency 3.

Anyway, if I can find someone to help test out all the WIP versions, then I will do it, I got the time. If someone here is interested, PM me with a way to contact you so we can set up a meeting time.

FistOfFury · Post by **FistOfFury** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:12 am

Nach wrote:See what happens when using only TCP

I just tried, it freezes my computer when I try to connect to someone via TCP
??????????????
It doesn't do this with 1.36
???????????

EDIT: UPDATE - TCP works only if he connects to me. And that's the only thing that works, it desynced right in middle of first SFA2 match.......

Post by **Nach** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:49 pm

FistOfFury wrote:
Nach wrote:See what happens when using only TCP
I just tried, it freezes my computer when I try to connect to someone via TCP
??????????????
It doesn't do this with 1.36
???????????

Let me ask you.

Did you pick a person, try connecting to him with RC1 via TCP when he was also using RC1, and then immediatly after that try connecting to him with v1.36 when he was also using v1.36?

FistOfFury · Post by **FistOfFury** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:37 pm

Nach wrote:
FistOfFury wrote:
Nach wrote:See what happens when using only TCP
I just tried, it freezes my computer when I try to connect to someone via TCP
??????????????
It doesn't do this with 1.36
???????????
Let me ask you.

Did you pick a person, try connecting to him with RC1 via TCP when he was also using RC1, and then immediatly after that try connecting to him with v1.36 when he was also using v1.36?

No, I didn't just pick any random person. It was a friend of mine, who I just played the previous three nights in a row with 1.36 and there was no problems. We both used RC1 via TCP yesterday. Also, I didn't try afterwards with 1.36 because he had to leave cuz his wife was about to kick him off the computer, haha.

Post by **Nach** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:50 am

If you didn't try back to back, then your findings are meaningless.

I just went through all the netplay code, and after looking at all that what was commited, removed, commited, removed etc...
At the end the current netplay code matches v1.36 exactly except where the MS-DOS port is concerned.

FistOfFury · Post by **FistOfFury** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:03 pm

It's the same code? That's impossible because when me and many others switch to WIP we get desync city, then when we use 1.36 it works fine. Or maybe something else in the code besides the netplay code is indirectly causing the desyncs.

Post by **Nach** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:41 am

The netplay code is identical.

I was playing a 4 player game on my network today for ~3 hours using UDP and had no desyncs. Which leads me to assume there is more activity in recent builds, and the packets are getting lost on the net and it's not a problem with ZSNES, because a local network can handle it fine.

FistOfFury · Post by **FistOfFury** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 3:18 am

OK, whatever you say man. All I know is I can be playing the same person, and I'll switch back and forth between 1.36 and RC1. 1.36 = Fine, RC1/WIP = desync city. Switch back and forth again, and same story. Everything has the same settings, same game, etc. Maybe the Internet decides to be evil and will only let 1.36 work, or maybe I'm in the Matrix and this is all a dream.

Post by **Nach** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 3:22 am

Well if it was a bug in ZSNES itself, how come I can play a 4P game via UDP for 3 hours and no desync on a local net?

Dracula X · Post by **Dracula X** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:54 am

i don't know why of how this is all happening but i do know this: i never had ANY trouble desyncing with 1.36. and i mean never. But when i got 1.40 RC1 it was desync city. i had people get pissed at me cause they thought i wasn't doing antything during the match. i hate desync. Please fix this. please.

funkyass · Post by **funkyass** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:37 am

the problem with desyncs probably exists to the larger ping times one encounters on the internet, and the general improvements in emulation. As accuracy in emulation gets better, netplay is probably going to get worser, unless someone implements a netplay model that is more closer to how a snes worked.

the snes never had the ability to matain state between multiple units, and thats how netplay on snes9x/zsnes works. It needs to more Model-View Contoller than what it is now.

Thats me most likey talking out of my ass like Nach, who thinks his LAN is the same as the internet. Thats like saying milage in city and hiway for a given car are the same because the car and the ashphalt are identical.

Aerdan · Post by **Aerdan** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:41 am

Or maybe you're just a dipshit looking to cause trouble.

Post by **Nach** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:47 am

funkyass wrote: Thats me most likey talking out of my ass like Nach, who thinks his LAN is the same as the internet. Thats like saying milage in city and hiway for a given car are the same because the car and the ashphalt are identical.

I don't think it's the same as the net, that's my whole point.

FistOfFury · Post by **FistOfFury** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:15 pm

DraculaX's post is proof right there that it isn't just me experiencing this. And here's some more proof courtesy of the zbattle forum:

"My memories on desyncing in the past.

It was either 1.35 or 1.337, there was a certain game that would desync, Faceball 2000 or something like that. Also, another time with another person, Battletoads DD would desync for another friend. I've also exp one or two others during the 4 years I've played Zsnes online, all UDP, all non-WIP versions. Not bad considering I've played hundreds of different people both with Cable and with 56k. I can't recall a 1.36 desync yet.

Now, last week I try SF@2 with someone with that new RC version thing, game worked perfect except we desynced EVERY STINKIN ROUND, except 2! I've never had a problem with that person using any 1.x version so we knew what the problem was. It was that RC version. We played UDP, lat 3 or 1 didn't change anything. Hitting ESC to change controls during game or not didn't change anything. It would desync on its own will, usually within the first 10-30 seconds of the first fight. I'm not sure how we made it through a whole round though, but it was quick to desync on the next one, guaranteed."

funkyass wrote:the problem with desyncs probably exists to the larger ping times one encounters on the internet, and the general improvements in emulation. As accuracy in emulation gets better, netplay is probably going to get worser, unless someone implements a netplay model that is more closer to how a snes worked.

the snes never had the ability to matain state between multiple units, and thats how netplay on snes9x/zsnes works. It needs to more Model-View Contoller than what it is now.

Thats me most likey talking out of my ass like Nach, who thinks his LAN is the same as the internet. Thats like saying milage in city and hiway for a given car are the same because the car and the ashphalt are identical.

Maybe that's why. The emulation and timing is different in the new emulators. Maybe some games just have bad timing or something, and it causes netplay to desync alot. (what games did you use Nach?) Or maybe the netplay should be changed and seperated into two different functions, one for LAN, and one for the internet, because testing just under LAN conditions is different from the internet. And the one for the internet should check more often for desyncs (maybe it can be configured like the latency setting can be configured), but while still having fast button response times if that's at all possible, cuz that's important on the internet, especially for fighting and action games.

Post by **pagefault** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:09 pm

Can I have everyone's full system specs and network specs including internet connection type (cable, DSL) and speed plus if you are using a router which router are you using? Thanks.