ZSNES rerecordable feature: More trouble than it's worth?

[Myster DAHN]

Is the proposed rerecordable feature being added to the popular ZSNES emulator set to do more harm than good? I, as well as many other competitive gamers from around the globe, provide a resounding yes to that question.

Competitive gaming and emulators have always been at odds, be it over savestates or rerecordable features (like the one seen in the NES emulator 'Famtasia'); The former being the primary reason why picture proof became obselete when attempting to validate a score, and the latter soon to be the primary reason why video proof will become obselete when attemplting to validate a score.

Emulator makers strive to create hardwares that mimic actual game consoles as accurately as possible, and that is commendable. Unfortunately, this fact coupled with the proposed inclusion of a rerecordable feature make it incredibly easy for illegitimate runs to be created and submitted to score-keeping institutions as though they were legitimate (Twin Galaxies submission parameters aside, as those parameters can be easily side-stepped even with an elementary knowledge of video-editing software).

Gameplay footage created using rerecordable save-stating emulators has been shown to inspire mass confusion (most people who see them thinking they are played legitimately) and rampant accusations of cheating (when even video-proof is not enough) among legitimate players. We are all painfully aware of the mass confusion elicited by the Super Mario Bros 3 "Time Attack" produced by Morimoto, the primary problem being that everyone who watched it thought (and most still think) it was real. This could attributed to the fact that there was not a disclaimer attached to the video to warn of it not being what it appeared to be. But, as has been shown with the videos at Bisqwits popular site, even when a disclaimer is provided (albeit a needlessly esoteric and evasive one that lasts for less than a second in the case of Bisqwit's disclaimers) most of the people who view these videos will either not realize or not care that the video is NOT legitimate in any way, shape, or form.

Competitive gaming has reached a vital crossroad. The SNES remains one of the, if not the most competatively played console in gaming history, and the ZSNES emulator is easily the most popular console emulator ever produced having already been downloaded millions of times. There is no denying that NES competative gaming has been irreparably damaged by the presence of a rerecordable feature in an emulator, and it is doubtful that it will recover from it.

Forseeing the damage that a rerecordable feature will reap to SNES competative gaming if applied to the most popular emulator in the world, ZSNES, we propose the following... For the love of emulators, for the love of legitimacy, for the love of videogames in general, please reconsider adding the rerecordable feature to the ZSNES emulator.
I personally know many gamers who retired from one of their favorite hobbies when Famtasia became popular, and I know many more amazingly skilled players who will leave if ZSNES receives what is being proposed.

[Magus`]

This is... sad.

[funkyass]

Re-recordable feature?

And, yeah, I agree with magus, thats sad.

Because an emulator lacks this feature, doesn't prevent anyone from doing what you are complaining about.

[Reciprocal]

Hello. I'm also a concerned competitive gamer, and I feel that the addition of a re-recording feature to the ZSNES emulator would be highly detrimental to the state of competitive gaming. There are gamers retiring from gaming left and right because of videos produced by these with too many reasons to name. Competitive gaming is essentially a dead and rotting corpse right now thanks to re-recording features present in emulators akin to Snes9x, VirtuaNES, and worst of all Famtasia.

It is to be understood that the consideration of implementation of these features in the past does not put any of the ZSNES programmers at fault in my eyes, as they may have not put much thought into the resulting chaos these features would cause. I would like to list off copious misconceptions frequently associated with the mentioned videos.

#1) People think they are not fake, cheated, video edited, or illegitimate.
#2) People think that doing a run with savestates and slowdowns is almost as amazing as doing the same without.
#3) People frequently refer to these as either speedruns/time attacks/emulator runs/superplays/tool-assisted, when all are currently used to define legitimate runs.
#4) The creators of these videos obviously often make little to no effort in assuring the viewer that what they are watching is in fact fake/cheated/edited. See #1.
#5) Some people think these videos do not harm legitimate gamers in any way when obviously the opposite holds true.

There are many more misconceptions but the above listed misconceptions are the most damaging to competitive gaming. Ways these movies harm legitimate gamers is by monopolizing the entertainment market thus forcing a dramatic decrease in interest associated with legitimate performances as well as constant referral of the fake movies as "so much more entertaining", these movies inspire accusations out the back end mostly geared towards legitimate gamers and the assumption that they are using these video editing programs. More ways these movies are harming the general state of competitive gaming is by brewing misconceptions due to lack of information, spoiling theoretical limits for gamers simply competing to discover how fast a game may be able to be beaten, devaluing video game achievements, and gathering fans en masse to worship what is more entertaining to many than a legitimate run.

Another very important point to note is that if re-recording features are added to the ZSNES emulator, all previous achievements recorded via ZMV will become completely obsolete, and any person that has at one time recorded a ZMV to either entertain people with a cool video or to prove that they're not lying about something that they've done will be on the exact same platform as a boatload of cheaters, and face to face no less. Many ZMVs will soon fall prey to a sea of misconceptions, and people with only one sole motive-- to entertain people with gaming skill or cool videos-- will receive undeserved hate bundled with the assumption that they've made a fake video. If something is "too good" it will be written off by even somewhat skilled gamers as a cheating pile of filth, and I do not want the currently indubitable status of the ZMV to be revoked due to these features.

I do not believe adding something to a cheated ZMV, possibly a watermark of sorts, would lessen the catastrophic events inspired by re-recording features a noticeable amount. It is more than likely that one could simply download an editor of hexadecimal and remove said watermark from the movie, and it is also very likely that it could be cropped out or removed from the picture in a conversion to a different movie format. Even if all of this was not possible, in which it is, there would still be many ways that these features would lacerate all of competitive gaming further, which have been cited.

I am simply trying to stop a disaster before it occurs. A Super Nintendo emulator currently exists with this feature already and all hell is breaking loose. I would greatly appreciate it if the same did not happen with an emulator many times more popular than the aforementioned one, and with this I am asking the coders of ZSNES to refrain from adding these features. No harm is done through abstaining to add disasterous features, and it would earn you an unprecedented amount of respect from myself; I also imagine many other skilled competitive gamers would also respect you a great deal if you would do this. Dan is trying to stop you from accidentally paving the way for a legion of cheaters, as am I. Please reconsider what you are doing. It's greatly appreciated.

Also, as for the two ignorant people that posted asinine comments and think that a person concerned about the slowly dying state of competitive gaming is sad, both of you really aren't contributing jack to the discussion with posts insulting a person of good nature. There have been wars lasting nearly 500 posts in multiple topics over these that exist everywhere, the most known about being GameFAQs (said topics are pruned now although there are some smaller wars being waged). This is not a trivial issue as has been stated thousands of times in those topics, and these movies are often put up onto a site in which millions (yes, millions) of people download them. This doesn't exactly put gamers dedicated to entertaining people with legitimate performances of skill in a good mood, and I don't want to turn this into a flame war thread nor intend for this to be a flame but please, refrain from posting highly unintelligible flaming material directed at a person of good nature.

I'm assuming that "Chosen|Admin" is simply a custom rank, as I highly doubt an administrator would act of that nature regarding to something of this importance, but if I am factually incorrect in my assumption the people appointing administrators for this board aren't doing too great of a job. Again, I don't wish to be banned and don't wish for this to be a flamewar thread and I imagine Dan feels the same way, so please refrain from posting any flames in this topic from this point as this thread seems to be intended for intelligent discussion on the matter. Also, I am requesting of an administrator to delete posts simply insulting the intent of this topic.

[funkyass]

The problem isn't with re-recordable video, its with competive gaming via video.

That isn't really true compettion, its just penis measuring.

True competition is face-to-face competition, and complaining about video recording capability in emulators isn't going to fix it.

As I stated before, not having this feature in zsnes won't prevent people from editing videos they make.

Hell, the SNES lacking this feature also won't prevent anyone from editing their videos either.

Like, if you want to fix this issue, start a league of some sort. From what the complaint is, the true problem is that there isn't any mechanism to ensure that nothing dumb is done by competitors, ie you are lacking referees.

Im fairly sure that most people who use emulators use it just for the fun of playing games, the few of those that do use emulators for competition should get together and form some sort of organization to ensure a level playing field.

You can't turn a hockey stick into an anti-cheating device. Punish the cheaters, not the equipment they use.

And, people recording videos of the game they play, and passing them for comparison and calling that competition is sad.

[Ichinisan]

The movie feature is not only for speed runs

It's purpose is to record DEMONSTRATIONS. Re-recording is a VERY important addition to this feature.

End of discussion.

[Spoony]

Get a new hobby. Perhaps one that involves more than sitting in a dark room in front of a monitor for hours on end.

[Sawquid is your superior]

Punish the cheaters, not the equipment they use.

The problem is, zsnes (btw i'm too stupid to learn the name of the emulator), which was clean of cheaters/etc, is going to become part of the masses. I don't blame the programmers, as I doubt this scenario proved to be much of an issue upon their decision.

To those of you who blow our arguments off as 'sad,' might I suggest not reading through the topic, then replying, if it puts you in such a foul mood? Conversations such as this often deteriorate into massive flame-wars at GameFAQs, mainly thanks to statements such as "I don't care at all about the current state of competitive gaming, so what do I have to lose if I say "This is sad"?
Yeah... it's not as if we're forcing our opinion on you, so rude, ignorant comments are absolutely not necessary.
I feel this topic is important, so it doesn't need to turn into a flame-war. Thank you.

I'm not sure what to say that hasn't been said. zsnes (btw i'm too stupid to learn the name of the emulator) is undoubtedly one of the most popular emulators for competitive gaming. If the programmers go along with their current course of action, an explanation of competitive gaming's inevitable future is not necessary.

I can see the pros and cons of what's being proposed, but the cons easily outweigh the pros if you take all things into consideration.

[Sawquid is your superior]

Double post.

[parasyte]

Hello. I'm also a concerned competitive gamer, and I feel that the addition of a re-recording feature to the ZSNES emulator would be highly detrimental to the state of competitive gaming. There are gamers retiring from gaming left and right because of videos produced by these with too many reasons to name. Competitive gaming is essentially a dead and rotting corpse right now thanks to re-recording features present in emulators akin to Snes9x, VirtuaNES, and worst of all Famtasia.

The set of rules most people play by for speed runs forbids the use of emulators outright. It doesn't matter whether it's built into an emulator or not, if the source exists someone can cheat. Even if the source doesn't exist someone can cheat.

Your predicament is the same one that came up in the Doom speed run community. Machine-assisted runs happened there when some enterprising individuals documented the format for demos. It was controversial, but the community moved on and the cheated demos didn't destroy it.

If cheated emulator recordings are destroying your community, I suggest that your community needs to be stronger.

[Kyouji]

parasyte, you fail to include details. Precisely what were the rulings involved, and what were the circumstances? Did people who made the machine runs pretty much label said runs as perfectly real, although tool-assisted, or did they present them as what they were - completely cheated runs? Additionally, while it may surprise you, I believe that the total number of people who use ZSNES and play SNES games competitively greatly exceeds the Doom speed run community. As such, it would be much easier to inform people of exactly what is going on in the Doom speedrun community than it would be to convince everyone who uses ZSNES and looks at these movies of exactly what is going on. Thusly, your comparison is flawed at best.

As a somewhat competitive gamer myself, It saddens me that the idea to allow rerecording in something such as ZSNES this would even be brought up. As others have stated before and as will most likely be stated in the future, the potential for using this to cheat is overwhelming, and you can’t exactly say people won’t make a very big attempt to mislead and downright lie to others; Dan already mentioned Bisqwit’s site which saves me a great deal of time.

Anyway, like Dan said, since competitive SNES gaming is so large and ZSNES is so popular, allowing a good rerecording emulator in is madness. If people want to cheat they can use the somewhat inferior Snes9x; there’s no reason to devalue ZSNES movies when a fair alternative exists. Allowing savestated ZSNES movies would be rather unwise as a result.

Of course, there are several ways of getting around this; For instance, making the rerecordable movie recorder/player separate from the normal one, using a different file format, and of course having a note before the movie say that it was fake and cheated and not to be treated as a real movie, but of course there are several problems with this as well; simply recording the image to a standard movie format and cutting out the note, and with the popularity of ZSNES I doubt it would be long before someone released a tool to convert a rerecorded movie in to the same movie in the current format used or whatever format is to be used with “non-cheated” movies.

In summary, I just don’t think it’s a good idea.

[Myster DAHN]

The movie feature is not only for speed runs

It's purpose is to record DEMONSTRATIONS. Re-recording is a VERY important addition to this feature.

End of discussion.

That may have been the ORIGINAL purpose for the rerecordable feature, but as history has shown, when a tool such as rerecording falls into the hands of someone looking for quick and easy fame, these videos are produced for anything but demonstration . The people who produce these videos ascribe their internet monikers to them and write up a detailed synopsis as though the video were a time-consuming trial to produce and they should be lauded as skillful demi-gods for their accomplishments.

I wish rerecorded videos could be utilized JUST to show how certain difficult glitches are triggered and the like, if at all. But the videos on Bisqwit's site are quite obviously not for demonstration; They are monopolizing the gameplay video market and making legitimate gameplay look like substandard garbage to be laughed at. They are also deceiving over 90% of the people that watch and receive the videos. Bear in mind that most people receive the videos over peer to peer connections, instant messenger file sharing and/or links on ignorant forums.

If what has happened to NES emulation and online competition can be prevented from happening to the SNES, then I just hope that the coders responsible for ZSNES will read this topic and be open minded enough to listen to what we have to say.

[Joe Camacho]

Well then, if it troubles you, don't use it, and make zsnes movies "not legal" or whatever.

But just for the record, every video format can be edited or modified, .avi, .mpg, etc. So what's your point? Just because it may have "wrong" purposes it doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

It is a tool, It's results depend on who uses it.

Also, if you "gaming community" or whatever it is, uses hacks, editions, save states and everything else. What's the point on competing? Might es well give up the competition.

PS: This is my opinion, don't take it as the whole zsnes community point of view.

[Magus`]

I repeat -

This. Is. Sad.

[crocogator]

Hey all, I'm Crocogator. I'm pretty damn opposed to videos that have been rerecorded as well as pretty damn opposed to the people that make them. Myster and Reciprocal more or less covered every last word I wanted to say on this subject, and I won't post anything relating to the actual subject since if I would it would simply be a repost of what these guys said. I hate these cheated videos perhaps even more than these two, who from what I have seen really hate these videos (they do). It's difficult for me to be civil on a matter of something I absolutely detest, but bear with me here as I'll try my best.


The problem isn't with re-recordable video, its with competive gaming via video.


The problem is with both rerecordable video and competitive gaming via video, since rerecordable video has been used (from what I have seen) 100% in intent of faking videos. Competitive gaming via video is essentially re-recordable video, and the only possible thing that can be done with re-recordable video is cheating. We want to eliminate cheating and this means stopping re-recordable video as best as we can.


That isn't really true compettion, its just penis measuring.


This doesn't make any sense. Nobody is measuring their penis, people are competitively gaming. Measuring a penis and competitively gaming are two pretty vastly different things.


True competition is face-to-face competition, and complaining about video recording capability in emulators isn't going to fix it.


You have absolutely no right to say what "true competition" is and declare it as some kind of fact. There's no monument up on a hill somewhere with a carving of what competitive gaming is and isn't written into it. Competitive anything does not have to be face to face, there are many people who compete in various things not restricted to video games and not face to face. We are not complaining about video recording capability, in fact, I am perfectly fine with that and actually encourage it. We're complaining about re-recording capability, also known as the capability to cheat. If the programmers see this topic, which they will, and actually reconsider, I will feel as if I have accomplished something and I imagine everybody else will feel the same way.


As I stated before, not having this feature in zsnes won't prevent people from editing videos they make. Hell, the SNES lacking this feature also won't prevent anyone from editing their videos either.


Snes9x aside you are wrong on both counts. If not including Snes9x there is no known way to make a cheated movie that doesn't require thousands or tens of thousands of hours stitching together bitmaps, jpegs or gifs. If somebody spends these tens of thousands of hours simply to cheat at a video game they are factually in desperate need of a life. These programs simply allow them to cheat faster and more efficiently and this is why I think the exclusion of these features is needed.


Like, if you want to fix this issue, start a league of some sort. From what the complaint is, the true problem is that there isn't any mechanism to ensure that nothing dumb is done by competitors, ie you are lacking referees.


There actually are leagues of some sort. This is not the issue. The issue is that it is impossible to tell the difference between fake and cheated movies, and legit movies. The issue is that it is impossible for somebody to prevent what is happening so this is what we are trying. I was actually pointed here by a league of some sort. I'm now trying to prevent this as these people are and I'd appreciate it if you'd respect that.


Im fairly sure that most people who use emulators use it just for the fun of playing games, the few of those that do use emulators for competition should get together and form some sort of organization to ensure a level playing field.


The fun of playing games can include the fun of being a competitive gamer. You have probably played games competitively without even realizing it. If you have ever tried to get a better score than somebody else you have competitively gamed. Actually, if you have ever tried to better your own scores you have competitively gamed because you are trying to do better than what you previously had done; i.e. you are competing with yourself. Emulators are perfectly fine from what I can see, it's just the features that are being presented (rerecording ones) that bother me. There are organizations but nothing can be done to truly tell the difference, which is precisely why I am here explaining all of this.


You can't turn a hockey stick into an anti-cheating device. Punish the cheaters, not the equipment they use.


I'm not trying to punish the equipment they use, I'm trying to prevent the equipment they use so it won't be used. Personally, I love ZSNES. It's my favorite SNES emulator right now, and it is a great one at that. I really do not want to see it tainted by these features, which is why I and others are bringing this to the attention of the coders.


And, people recording videos of the game they play, and passing them for comparison and calling that competition is sad.


No. Just no. You saying something like this is f*cking sad. There are tens of thousands of people that do this. It's in wide practice. Using your same logic I could say anything is sad, including any form of competition. As in basketball is sad. Use your head, thanks.


The movie feature is not only for speed runs. It's purpose is to record DEMONSTRATIONS. Re-recording is a VERY important addition to this feature. End of discussion.


Excuse me? Actually, yes, excuse me for the following. WHAT THE F*CKING F*CK IS WRONG WITH YOU. With that all cleared up, these "demonstrations" are CHEATED DEMONSTRATIONS THAT ARE CONSTANTLY BEING COMPARED TO REAL DEMONSTRATIONS OVER AND OVER, AND THE WAYS IN WHICH THESE "DEMONSTRATIONS" HARM THE HELL OUT OF COMPETITIVE GAMERS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT OVER 10 F*CKING TIMES AND IN DOUBLE THE WAYS. God damn. Sorry to all for that outburst, but you're an idiot. A very misinformed idiot that sounds like he would defend these cheat runs to the death, particularly the worst form of cheat runs (the ones found on Bisqwit's site).


So you're saying that to record cheated movies cheating features are very important. Wow! Yes, yes they are! There's no end of discussion, I don't want cheating features put into my personal favorite emulator and I will defend my stance on this argument. If these movies were something like Mario Paint movies with no mistakes, I wouldn't mind. It's funny how all these "demonstrations" compete in the most widely competitive aspect of all of gaming, speed running, when there are hundreds of other things that they could compete in. None differ from this.


Get a new hobby. Perhaps one that involves more than sitting in a dark room in front of a monitor for hours on end.


Get a new hobby. One that involves not posting, and f*cking off. Thanks!


The set of rules most people play by for speed runs forbids the use of emulators outright. It doesn't matter whether it's built into an emulator or not, if the source exists someone can cheat. Even if the source doesn't exist someone can cheat.


Actually, there are many organizations that allow emulators for competitive play, but this is beside the point. What is not beside the point is that emulators shouldn't have to be disallowed from speed competitions. I have seen a great number of communities that used emulators as a form of record-tracking, and many of these communities had far more emulator players than console players at a ratio of perhaps even 4:1. These people also really corrupt the meaning of emulator movie, since emulator movies were all legit before this happened, and were often used as a quick and reliable way to show skill at something or demonstrate something. The point is that it is very difficult for someone to cheat barring Snes9x in the Super Nintendo world right now and ZSNES' rerecording features will just quintuple the amount of cheaters running around which isn't needed, really.


Your predicament is the same one that came up in the Doom speed run community. Machine-assisted runs happened there when some enterprising individuals documented the format for demos. It was controversial, but the community moved on and the cheated demos didn't destroy it.


Like I believe Dan mentioned, the reason it wasn't destroyed is because the Doom community is not amazingly large and it was rather simple to inform everybody in it of the cheated status of the videos, not to mention these videos more than likely did not get out to many people. The cheated runs on the Bisqwit site have been downloaded by millions, so it's not exactly trivial and it destroys communities. There's proof of this with legit gamers retiring left and right.


If cheated emulator recordings are destroying your community, I suggest that your community needs to be stronger.


Incorrect. Regardless of how strong the community is cheated rerecordings will still destroy it. There are too many reasons to list, some of which have already been listed, but I think the main one is that millions of people find these cheated runs more entertaining than real videos and it just gives the competitive gamer no reason to competitively game anymore as everybody just wants "CHEAT YAY" instead of real videos.


Well then, if it troubles you, don't use it, and make zsnes movies "not legal" or whatever.


ZSNES movies are already legal. They're legal in almost every place you could think of. Saying this is like saying "make console movies illegal!". It makes no sense. Also, legal status is not entirely perfectly able to be attributed to these videos, it's more an issue of legitimacy. Calling ZSNES movies illegit would instantly make every ZSNES movie out there... the thousands out there, in fact... instantly regarded as a pile of sh*t, and this was said about 20 times. Scroll up and read the essays others have presented before making a post.


But just for the record, every video format can be edited or modified, .avi, .mpg, etc. So what's your point? Just because it may have "wrong" purposes it doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.


What the blue h*ll? It takes thousands of hours to modify another movie format to make something that looks entirely legit. These features, if implemented, would take maybe a few hours at most to make a fake movie. My point is it just made it a hell of a lot easier. It's like making a rape device that lets you automatically rape anyone you want without their consent. Also, if something has wrong purposes that does mean it shouldn't exist. Did that statement have any logic in it whatsoever? I don't see any. Everything that is morally wrong and is of this caliber shouldn't exist. Should a rape device that lets you automatically rape anyone you want without their consent exist? No, it shouldn't. It shouldn't exist.


It is a tool, It's results depend on who uses it.


Again, this makes no f*cking sense whatsoever. That's like saying for the above rape device "its a tool results depend who uses it lolz". The result is the same with every possible person that makes a cheated movie; a cheated movie is born. Of course, movies can be of different levels of severity (Bisqwit movies sitting comfortably at the top), but they are all generally bad and 99.99% of the movies coming out are not going to have a good intent.


Also, if you "gaming community" or whatever it is, uses hacks, editions, save states and everything else. What's the point on competing? Might es well give up the competition.


What the h*ll, again? Where did anybody say they were using hacks, save states or anything like that? People come in using FEATURES LIKE THE RERECORDING ONES THAT WE ARE TRYING TO PREVENT WITH THIS TOPIC. The "What's the point on competing? Might as well give up the competition" is precisely what gamers that are retiring because of the rerecording emulators think, since everybody is just entering the competition with the features we are currently trying to prevent.


This. Is. Sad.


You dumb f*cking son of a b*tch. I don't give a fat rat's f*ck who the god damned you are, get the f*ck out of the topic with your worthless-as-sh*t posts. The only thing that's sad in this topic are you and your ass buddies, so frankly, f*ck off.


In conclusion, I really would like to apologize to my outburst to some of the r*tarded trolling comments that some ignorant users have posted. I really didn't come in here with intent of flaming everybody, but there are so many flamers already present that I couldn't not flame. I hope I make the ZSNES people reconsider adding these features, and if the ZSNES people read this post, I give my thanks for reading this entire thing as it is very long. I'm probably just going to get made fun of for defending competitive gaming or making a long post, so... thanks for your time everybody, I'm out.

[Joe Camacho]

Well then, if it troubles you, don't use it, and make zsnes movies "not legal" or whatever.


ZSNES movies are already legal. They're legal in almost every place you could think of. Saying this is like saying "make console movies illegal!". It makes no sense. Also, legal status is not entirely perfectly able to be attributed to these videos, it's more an issue of legitimacy. Calling ZSNES movies illegit would instantly make every ZSNES movie out there... the thousands out there, in fact... instantly regarded as a pile of sh*t, and this was said about 20 times. Scroll up and read the essays others have presented before making a post.

- Well then, no use to try to stop the rerecording huh?

But just for the record, every video format can be edited or modified, .avi, .mpg, etc. So what's your point? Just because it may have "wrong" purposes it doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.


What the blue h*ll? It takes thousands of hours to modify another movie format to make something that looks entirely legit. These features, if implemented, would take maybe a few hours at most to make a fake movie. My point is it just made it a hell of a lot easier. It's like making a rape device that lets you automatically rape anyone you want without their consent. Also, if something has wrong purposes that does mean it shouldn't exist. Did that statement have any logic in it whatsoever? I don't see any. Everything that is morally wrong and is of this caliber shouldn't exist. Should a rape device that lets you automatically rape anyone you want without their consent exist? No, it shouldn't. It shouldn't exist.

- Well, you’ll have to rely more on the people who summit movies, trust them and their skills, make your rules more strict, there is no other way, know that we are in olympic times, I’ll use it as an example, with all the stimulants and stuff that can help people cheat, by your logic, the olympic games are not worth it and must be stopped? NO, there are not, because there is HONOR in sport, for course, some don’t have honor, but measures are taken, I know it’s hard, but sometimes you must trust people, and comparing cheating in a videogame movie to rape is sad.


It is a tool, It's results depend on who uses it.


Again, this makes no f*cking sense whatsoever. That's like saying for the above rape device "its a tool results depend who uses it lolz". The result is the same with every possible person that makes a cheated movie; a cheated movie is born. Of course, movies can be of different levels of severity (Bisqwit movies sitting comfortably at the top), but they are all generally bad and 99.99% of the movies coming out are not going to have a good intent.

- Well, lets say that you make a movie with it, totally legit movie, but because it is made in Zsnes, people will be able to say that you cheated. How would you feel after that? It is all a matter of trust.


Also, if you "gaming community" or whatever it is, uses hacks, editions, save states and everything else. What's the point on competing? Might es well give up the competition.


What the h*ll, again? Where did anybody say they were using hacks, save states or anything like that? People come in using FEATURES LIKE THE RERECORDING ONES THAT WE ARE TRYING TO PREVENT WITH THIS TOPIC. The "What's the point on competing? Might as well give up the competition" is precisely what gamers that are retiring because of the rerecording emulators think, since everybody is just entering the competition with the features we are currently trying to prevent.

- Well, then, you were just now complaing about the uses of edited movies, again, trust.

This. Is. Sad.


You dumb f*cking son of a b*tch. I don't give a fat rat's f*ck who the god damned you are, get the f*ck out of the topic with your worthless-as-sh*t posts. The only thing that's sad in this topic are you and your ass buddies, so frankly, f*ck off.

- I like to be as polite as possible but: Shut up. You know, travelling through the Internet you may know people that think different than you, I know it is a hard concept. And really, isn’t it Sad that you are trying to change the way a proyect is progressing only because your community has a lack of trust?

In conclusion, I really would like to apologize to my outburst to some of the r*tarded trolling comments that some ignorant users have posted. I really didn't come in here with intent of flaming everybody, but there are so many flamers already present that I couldn't not flame. I hope I make the ZSNES people reconsider adding these features, and if the ZSNES people read this post, I give my thanks for reading this entire thing as it is very long. I'm probably just going to get made fun of for defending competitive gaming or making a long post, so... thanks for your time everybody, I'm out.

- I’m glad you are out.

Ok, I studied your post, and I only have one thing to say to you: Trust.

PS My responses are in Bold

[Reciprocal]

Well, this topic has apparently degenerated into a pile of flames being flung back and forth, started by innumerous of what appears to be forum regulars. I have no idea why I expected intelligent discussion and am sorry to bother everybody by contributing to this topic in an intelligent way. I should have known random flames would have become inevitable. I'm mainly talking about Magus and Spoony.

Edit: I'll most likely abstain from this topic and simply let the ZSNES coders make of it what they will, as I would imagine the original intent of the topic was to alert the programmers of ZSNES and explain to them that most every competitive gamer would prefer that these features be excluded from any future releases. I don't wish to take part in a flamewar and thusly I won't.

[Joe Camacho]

Well, this topic has apparently degenerated into a pile of flames being flung back and forth, started by innumerous of what appears to be forum regulars. I have no idea why I expected intelligent discussion and am sorry to bother everybody by contributing to this topic in an intelligent way. I should have known random flames would have become inevitable. I'm mainly talking about Magus and Spoony.

Edit: I'll most likely abstain from this topic and simply let the ZSNES coders make of it what they will, as I would imagine the original intent of the topic was to alert the programmers of ZSNES and explain to them that most every competitive gamer would prefer that these features be excluded from any future releases. I don't wish to take part in a flamewar and thusly I won't.

Wait, you can have an intelligent discussion, this is no flame war, at least not right know. The problem is, that using this tool or not is a matter of choice, I would recommend you to organize yourself, make a set of rules and regulations and make everyone of your members stick to them, only then you will have a worthy competition.

Ps: This is just my opinion, do whatever you want with it.

[Spoony]

I understand your point, I just think it's silly. Besides, if I took up fucking off, I'd hardly be able to ridicule you and deride your competitions, now would I?

[Magus`]

This. Is. Sad.

You dumb f*cking son of a b*tch. I don't give a fat rat's f*ck who the god damned you are, get the f*ck out of the topic with your worthless-as-sh*t posts. The only thing that's sad in this topic are you and your ass buddies, so frankly, f*ck off.

Fuck this.

[Reciprocal]

I've heard Crocogator was banned (apparently by the disturbed administrator above), and I am posting this on his request. Please take note that this does not represent my views and is not being said by myself, and that Crocogator wishes for me to post this. I actually do agree with most of it, and if a banning is received for simply agreeing with it or posting this, this forum is more severely messed than I figured in the first place.

Oh dear god Joe, your responses make no f*cking sense and you didn't even read anything in the topic. Jesus truly cries for you. Also note that I have a ton of trust, and so does everybody else, which would become amazingly obvious to you had you read what people have to say. I'd like to respond to one of the things that you said that was just utterly r*tarded instead of a mess of uncomprehendability.


change the way a proyect is progressing only because your community has a lack of trust?


First off, our community? Every single SNES gaming community in the world would more than likely rather not see rerecording features randomly programmed into the most popular emulator there is for the system. That's right, Joe. We want to change the way something is progressing because it will simply spawn a gargantuan wave of cheaters. What is impossibly difficult in comprehending the logic of this concept?


Overall, my general critique on your "responses" is that you're an incoherent mess of babbling sh*t. Honestly, it's like you just didn't read any single thing that was said in the topic, and just decided to post without any awareness of the situation at all! Not to mention you didn't even understand what I was saying, and all your responses were completely unrelated to everything I said including the fact that you said things that were already outlined right in front of you. Are you simply too lazy to read everything here, or are you just a god damned m*ron?


I think this topic should be locked, I'm feeling the same way as Reciprocal right now despite being one of the flamers myself (mainly to r*tards like this, people that have originally started flaming). Perhaps this can be locked and somebody can point it in the direction of a ZSNES programmer? Thanks to the moderator/administrator that does this if it is done...

[Magus`]

*Is disturbed*

Sweet.

[funkyass]

Snes9x aside you are wrong on both counts. If not including Snes9x there is no known way to make a cheated movie that doesn't require thousands or tens of thousands of hours stitching together bitmaps, jpegs or gifs. If somebody spends these tens of thousands of hours simply to cheat at a video game they are factually in desperate need of a life. These programs simply allow them to cheat faster and more efficiently and this is why I think the exclusion of these features is needed.

Or, you could, say, hook your machine up to a VCR, and start recording. Or even to another cheap computer with a PVR unit. Hell, you can do that with a real snes.


There actually are leagues of some sort. This is not the issue. The issue is that it is impossible to tell the difference between fake and cheated movies, and legit movies. The issue is that it is impossible for somebody to prevent what is happening so this is what we are trying. I was actually pointed here by a league of some sort. I'm now trying to prevent this as these people are and I'd appreciate it if you'd respect that.

If you can't tell the difference between a real or a fake/cheated movie, then you need to a methodology to ensure the legitimate creation of a movie while its done. Thats what a league can do. Hell, a league could require the use of special editons of Snes9x/ZSNES in order to participate without punishing the rest of the community.

ZSNES's license does allow you to do that, so does Snes9x's.

You have solutions that don't impose restrictions on other people.

[Spoony]

Tell your buddy he needs to chill the fuck out. Even if there is a 'gargantuan wave of cheaters', it's not like that prevents you from doing speed runs and stuff yourself. If it is in fact more than just a pissing contest as you've said, does it really matter if somebody out there did better than you? You get the sense of accomplishment of having done it without cheating, they don't.

Or if you'd rather not accept that paragraph, I offer the alternative to quit fucking whining anyways, because I'm getting sick of it.

As you can clearly see, a string of expletives is not the ideal choice of comebacks when takling to an administrator, yeah?

[Ichinisan]

The movie feature is not only for speed runs. It's purpose is to record DEMONSTRATIONS. Re-recording is a VERY important addition to this feature. End of discussion.

Excuse me? Actually, yes, excuse me for the following. WHAT THE F*CKING F*CK IS WRONG WITH YOU. With that all cleared up, these "demonstrations" are CHEATED DEMONSTRATIONS THAT ARE CONSTANTLY BEING COMPARED TO REAL DEMONSTRATIONS OVER AND OVER, AND THE WAYS IN WHICH THESE "DEMONSTRATIONS" HARM THE HELL OUT OF COMPETITIVE GAMERS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT OVER 10 F*CKING TIMES AND IN DOUBLE THE WAYS. God damn. Sorry to all for that outburst, but you're an idiot. A very misinformed idiot that sounds like he would defend these cheat runs to the death, particularly the worst form of cheat runs (the ones found on Bisqwit's site).

*sigh

It was made for demonstrations. For example, I wanted to demonstrate a difficult glitch in a game which is very difficult to reproduce. It took several hours to successfully reproduce it because I had to re-play the same area repeatedly. You're actually suggesting that the feature should be as time-consuming as possible? Fuck you. This is analagous to Microsoft creating imaginary software limitations to sell different versions of the same software. I hope you see the absurdity in this, but your long-winded reply has probably already solidified your opinion (read: "pre-determined conclusion").

I personally do not care about some guy ("Bisqwit"?) who has too much time to waste on speed runs. Perhaps some people want to see how far a game can be pushed? Drop this issue. Speed runs are secondary to the primary function of the feature.