ZSNES rerecordable feature: More trouble than it's worth?

General area for talk about ZSNES. The best place to ask for related questions as well as troubleshooting.

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The Sage Of Time
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Re: Crocogator

Post by The Sage Of Time »

Reciprocal wrote:I've heard Crocogator was banned (apparently by the disturbed administrator above), and I am posting this on his request. Please take note that this does not represent my views and is not being said by myself, and that Crocogator wishes for me to post this. I actually do agree with most of it, and if a banning is received for simply agreeing with it or posting this, this forum is more severely messed than I figured in the first place.
This whole thread is sad and pointless.
And for reference the attitude and idiocy of that person, lead to his banning, not this "discussion."
Joe Camacho
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Re: Crocogator

Post by Joe Camacho »

Oh dear god Joe, your responses make no f*cking sense and you didn't even read anything in the topic. Jesus truly cries for you. Also note that I have a ton of trust, and so does everybody else, which would become amazingly obvious to you had you read what people have to say. I'd like to respond to one of the things that you said that was just utterly r*tarded instead of a mess of uncomprehendability.

- I'm quite sure Jesus doesn't cry for me.

change the way a proyect is progressing only because your community has a lack of trust?


First off, our community? Every single SNES gaming community in the world would more than likely rather not see rerecording features randomly programmed into the most popular emulator there is for the system. That's right, Joe. We want to change the way something is progressing because it will simply spawn a gargantuan wave of cheaters. What is impossibly difficult in comprehending the logic of this concept?

- Sorry if saying "your community" wasn't "big" enough for you, but it is easier to write "your community" than "Every single SNES gaming community in the world" - Aren't all of them, your community anyway? Cheaters aren't created by programs, people cheat because they want to. The concept is simple, even without the rerecordings, cheaters will exist. Anyway, maybe someone hasn't told you, but .avi recording won't replace .zmv, it is just and added feature AFAIK


Overall, my general critique on your "responses" is that you're an incoherent mess of babbling sh*t. Honestly, it's like you just didn't read any single thing that was said in the topic, and just decided to post without any awareness of the situation at all! Not to mention you didn't even understand what I was saying, and all your responses were completely unrelated to everything I said including the fact that you said things that were already outlined right in front of you. Are you simply too lazy to read everything here, or are you just a god damned m*ron?

- No, I'm not a moron, and I'm not used to call people by insults through the internet, I read everything you wrote, I'm sorry if not agreeing with you are "incoherent mess of babbling sh*t."

I think this topic should be locked, I'm feeling the same way as Reciprocal right now despite being one of the flamers myself (mainly to r*tards like this, people that have originally started flaming). Perhaps this can be locked and somebody can point it in the direction of a ZSNES programmer? Thanks to the moderator/administrator that does this if it is done...

- Please note what Magus' was quoting, It wasn't quoting your opinion about the subject, only a whole paragraphs of insults, in this forum, we try to control ourselves from that kind of conduct, if you had expressed yourself in better manner, you wouldn't be banned. Sorry for your inconvenience
*Sometimes I edit my posts just to correct mistakes.
Ichinisan
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Post by Ichinisan »

It's 3:38AM EST. I'm shocked at how quickly my response was buried by a second page >:(
Ichinisan wrote:
crocogator wrote:The movie feature is not only for speed runs. It's purpose is to record DEMONSTRATIONS. Re-recording is a VERY important addition to this feature. End of discussion.

Excuse me? Actually, yes, excuse me for the following. WHAT THE F*CKING F*CK IS WRONG WITH YOU. With that all cleared up, these "demonstrations" are CHEATED DEMONSTRATIONS THAT ARE CONSTANTLY BEING COMPARED TO REAL DEMONSTRATIONS OVER AND OVER, AND THE WAYS IN WHICH THESE "DEMONSTRATIONS" HARM THE HELL OUT OF COMPETITIVE GAMERS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT OVER 10 F*CKING TIMES AND IN DOUBLE THE WAYS. God damn. Sorry to all for that outburst, but you're an idiot. A very misinformed idiot that sounds like he would defend these cheat runs to the death, particularly the worst form of cheat runs (the ones found on Bisqwit's site).
*sigh

It was made for demonstrations. For example, I wanted to demonstrate a difficult glitch in a game which is very difficult to reproduce. It took several hours to successfully reproduce it because I had to re-play the same area repeatedly. You're actually suggesting that the feature should be as time-consuming as possible? Fuck you. This is analagous to Microsoft creating imaginary software limitations to sell different versions of the same software. I hope you see the absurdity in this, but your long-winded reply has probably already solidified your opinion (read: "pre-determined conclusion").

I personally do not care about some guy ("Bisqwit"?) who has too much time to waste on speed runs. Perhaps some people want to see how far a game can be pushed? Drop this issue. Speed runs are secondary to the primary function of the feature.
Last edited by Ichinisan on Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
funkyass
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Post by funkyass »

yeah. someone drank alot of coffee.
Joe Camacho
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Post by Joe Camacho »

Yeah, I didn't know Spoony and Ichi (Can I call you Ichi? I hope I can) had made a response until I saw Ichi's second post. Ichi and Spoony speak the truth.

BTW its 12:45 down here where I live.
*Sometimes I edit my posts just to correct mistakes.
Ichinisan
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Post by Ichinisan »

Joe Camacho wrote:...Spoony and Ichi (Can I call you Ichi? I hope I can)...
ZZzzZzZzzzz...Huh?! Oh, yeah. That's fine.
.
.
.
"Itch" or "Itchy" is good too.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
Tallgeese
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Post by Tallgeese »

Jesus Christ, it's Michael Flatley all over again... I would like to state offhand that not all competitive gamers are this anal, I've played with some on Jedi Academy.

I applaud Magus' on a superb Burnination.
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Post by Joe Camacho »

X Prime wrote:Jesus Christ, it's Michael Flatley all over again...
More like it's Antithesis...

If word of this discussion gets to Mr. Flatley, he will emerge from the ashes of his account like the mighty Phoenix, and smite them all with his Elite Super Powerful To The Max Water Cooled Machine. :roll:
*Sometimes I edit my posts just to correct mistakes.
Tallgeese
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Post by Tallgeese »

Joe Camacho wrote:
X Prime wrote:Jesus Christ, it's Michael Flatley all over again...
More like it's Antithesis...

If word of this discussion gets to Mr. Flatley, he will emerge from the ashes of his account like the mighty Phoenix, and smite them all with his Elite Super Powerful To The Max Water Cooled Machine. :roll:
Eh, they're two sides of the same coin I suppose. Elitist tools all.
Agozer
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Post by Agozer »

WTF?
[echo]This. Is. Sad.[/echo]

God damn Michael Flatley clones.
whicker: franpa is grammatically correct, and he still gets ripped on?
sweener2001: Grammatically correct this one time? sure. every other time? no. does that give him a right? not really.
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Myster DAHN
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Post by Myster DAHN »

I came into this topic neutral and benign as the QUEEN OF FUCKING ENGLAND and what do I get?! WHAT THE HELL IS THIS?!?!?! A forum full of the purest example of the STUPID I have ever witnessed on the internet!
I wanted an intelligable debate, whilst ALL YOU GERBIL-FUCKING QUEEFS want is the flame war to end all flame wars!

I ask you, how can ANY discernable level of intelligent conversation be mained or even imagined WHEN THE ADMINISTRATOR CAN'T STRING MORE THAN THREE FUCKING INTELLIGABLE WORDS TOGETHER?!?!?!?!?

"I applaud Magus' on a superb Burnination."

He successfully strung THREE words together. LET'S AWARD HIM THE GODDAMNED PULITZER PRIZE! SUPERB!!!!!!!!!

Posting like Magus has more than FOUR TIMES is not apathy as I would love to believe... When you try to pass that kidney stone off as a REPLY to a serious debate FOUR times, it is the ZENITH OF THE QUINTESSENCE of STUPIDITY the likes of which I have NEVER witnessed... And this is the ADMINISTRATOR WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SUBORDINATE TOO??!?!?!? IS THERE NO FUCKING JUSTICE ON THE INTERNET?!?!?

Joe Camel cancer whatever the FUCK your 14 YEAR OLD INSECURE LIVEJOURNAL TOTING ASS is called... You bottle and distill stupidty to such an unprecedented level as to be henceforth referred to as the sommelier of FUCKING RETARDED!... I can only hope and pray that English is you second language, or third, or yoctillianth... because those slanderous piles of goat-cum you are passing off as replies are SERIOUSLY giving me a fucking aneurism... I think my sagittal sinus just ruptured...

Jesus winged-armadillo christ...

"I would like to state offhand that not all competitive gamers are this anal"

And not all steaming piles of shit can walk, talk and fellate sub-IQ'd adminstrator's like you can X-Prime... Go back to whatever SINGLE PARENT CRACK-BUNGALOW you momentarily snuck out of while your whore of a mother is O.D.ing on Vicodin and hang yourself from a ceiling fan... Save me the trouble...

"This whole thread is sad and pointless.
And for reference the attitude and idiocy of that person, lead to his banning, not this "discussion.""


Why don't you try READING MORE THAN 8 FUCKING LETTERS of the poised and intelligent ESSAYS on the topic at hand my friends and I have been posting... Get hooked on phonics instead of crack cocaine you salmon-fucking Sage of Nazis...

"I'm shocked at how quickly my response was buried by a second page >:("

As if you had anything more intelligable or openminded to say about the matter as your cock-jockey friends... You feel your OPUS of BULLSHIT was worth posting TWICE... EACH TIME removing 3 years from my life! I dare you to say "Fuck You" to my face you futureless, bill-gates man-whore...

I have flat out run out of adjectives to describe the unfathomable level of disrespect, idiocy, absolutely unbelievable level of Michael Jackson fellating retardedness I have witnessed here today... The best of your comments were tactful as a vaginal fart...
I have given you assholes what you wanted of me, so ban me the fuck out of this cesspit of of a forum for my own health...

May you all get fucked up the ass with a bayonet for all eternity in the 666th layer of hell...
Tallgeese
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Post by Tallgeese »

...I have just two questions.

One, what is the probability of the above post being from a flame generator?

Two, since when is it a bad thing to applaud the swift removal of jackasses like crocogator? It's not? I didn't think so.

Please do us all the favor of crawling back into that dark hole you came out from.
Last edited by Tallgeese on Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Sage Of Time
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Post by The Sage Of Time »

I love how idiots call everyone else stupid flamers, when they are the only ones yelling and cursing, ranting and raving.
Kind of funny isn't it?
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Post by Kagerato »

Ah, so now we see your true colors, Myster DAHN. An easily angered, immature fool.

Do you honestly think you look respectable spouting off garbage like that?

Have you given a thought to the fact that maybe this whole topic was an utter waste of time? Especially if it could be so easily defeated by three words from a single person, albeit an admin?

Why would you have any sort of a reaction to his reply if you saw no truth whatsoever in it? It's not rational, especially on a medium like the internet.

My reply to the whole situation is best centered around the common "misconceptions" Reciprocal posted.
#1) People think they are not fake, cheated, video edited, or illegitimate.
Since they exist, they must be real. That is the foremost meaning of 'fake'; the second is covered by the other terms and therefore 'fake' is simply repetitive.

'Cheated' is a completely relative term in the context you're using. I feel that context is utterly worthless, because it is 100% subjective and therefore opinionated. The objective meaning of 'cheat' is to deceive. If no deception occurs, there is no cheating. But there will always be deception in all realms of life, and therefore there will always be cheating. Your goal is conclusively pointless.

I'd like you to think about how utterly boring the world would be if no one lied about anything.

They are edited, yes. So are all files. In order to construct essentially any file in RAM before it is written to disk, numerous edits are made. The point of editations is meaningless. They are a very welcome course in computing and in nature. To say that edits are bad is to say that change is bad -- guess what that makes you? A conservative, of course.

The term 'video' is a misnomer. ZSNES recordings are re-emulations, not videos. It is accurate to say that they are button-press recordings.

'Illegitimate' is the same as 'cheated' in the context you use. There's no need to cover the same thing twice; it's redundant.
#2) People think that doing a run with savestates and slowdowns is almost as amazing as doing the same without.
It is amazing. Obviously you've never actually done the kind of 'perfected', re-recorded run you're speaking of. It takes a hell of a lot of work and a massive amount of patience to re-record the same stupid jump a thousand times over until it works exactly the way you wanted.

Whether it is more amazing than playing the game as it would be done on the original hardware is entirely subjective. I'm not going to argue such a foolish matter of degree in the first place.
#3) People frequently refer to these as either speedruns/time attacks/emulator runs/superplays/tool-assisted, when all are currently used to define legitimate runs.
How is this a misconception, under any interpretation? You've phrased something wrong here. This is closer to fact.

What it's called is ultimately unimportant. The distinction is the aspect which holds the importance, and it is not necessary to use separate words to convey separate meaning. Often preferable, but unnecessary.
#4) The creators of these videos obviously often make little to no effort in assuring the viewer that what they are watching is in fact fake/cheated/edited. See #1.
There is no need to make the viewer aware that the demonstration is fake (because it isn't), cheated (because it isn't), or edited (because all computer files are edited). Re-examine response to point 1 if necessary.

When the run is complete and published, I feel distributing it as an emulator file is enough to ensure natural skepticism in any individual. The viewer should be able to figure out the conditions of the recording by the nature of the output.

While it would be ideal for all runs to be specifically labelled, to have an in-depth interview of the recorder for each one, it is not reasonable.

If the player was conscientious about the subject, it is not difficult for them to label how they created the demonstration.

The fact that you and other players do not agree on a standard by which demonstrations should be submitted, examined, and accepted is precisely why you need a well-developed, conceptually sound organization as mentioned by other posters.
#5) Some people think these videos do not harm legitimate gamers in any way when obviously the opposite holds true.
This is similar to the argument "guns don't kill people, people kill people". I hold that statement to be neither true nor false, merely opinionated. My opinion on it is that it is foolish. People do kill people, and sometimes the gun is the tool performing the assist. They may or may not have been capable of the action without the gun; that cannot be accurately determined and therefore it is irrelevant. It is enough to know the fact that Person A shot Person B.

Likewise in this situation. Your argument is best summarized as: "Legitimate gamers don't ruin themselves, Illegitimate runs ruin legitimate gamers." Subjective statement with no real meaning.

If players very good at any given game give up doing normal runs because someone proves that it is theoretically possible to do better, my opinion is -- GOOD! It's clear that if they gave up their hobby so easily, they were never doing it for a self-motivating reason in the first place.

The fact of the matter is that competition is not kept going by the players mainly for fun. There are plenty of ways to entertain oneself or others, many of which do not involve competiting with other people in any way. Competition is like battle -- it's about proving who is the best. Who will survive, who will rise to the top, who will dominate?

It's basic instinct. Competition is going to survive no matter how many ways people find to deceive others into believing they are the best. The real truth is that there is no best, and there never will be. Such a concept exists only in our minds.
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Post by Agozer »

Kagerato, you could have made that response slightly shorter, don't you think? :wink:
whicker: franpa is grammatically correct, and he still gets ripped on?
sweener2001: Grammatically correct this one time? sure. every other time? no. does that give him a right? not really.
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Post by Kagerato »

Could have? Certainly. However, where's the fun in that?
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Post by DarkDragoon »

Myster DAHN wrote:I got owned, now I'm crying like a little baby. I can not comprehend that these people don't think the same way I do.<sob> I think I'm going to insult random people who posted in this thread with flames from a generator. That'll show them, for I am so smart. S. M. R. T.
Fixed.
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Post by Agozer »

Kagerato wrote:Could have? Certainly. However, where's the fun in that?
You might have a point. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against your prolific writing habits. :wink:
whicker: franpa is grammatically correct, and he still gets ripped on?
sweener2001: Grammatically correct this one time? sure. every other time? no. does that give him a right? not really.
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Tallgeese
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Post by Tallgeese »

Kagerato, I find that post a bit overkill... Not due to length, but because it appears to me that you took Reciprocal way too literally and out of context to the point of almost going on a tangent. At least, in point 1 anyway.

I disagree with the guy, but I don't think that was at all warranted.
Ichinisan
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Post by Ichinisan »

Myster DAHN wrote:"I'm shocked at how quickly my response was buried by a second page >:("

As if you had anything more intelligable or openminded to say about the matter as your cock-jockey friends... You feel your OPUS of BULLSHIT was worth posting TWICE... EACH TIME removing 3 years from my life! I dare you to say "Fuck You" to my face you futureless, bill-gates man-whore...
This should pretty-much sum it up. I suggest you read it again. (yay for #3!)
Ichinisan wrote:The feature was made for demonstrations. For example, I wanted to demonstrate a glitch in a game which is very difficult to reproduce. It took several hours to successfully reproduce it because I had to re-play the same area repeatedly. You're actually suggesting that the feature should be as time-consuming as possible? Fuck you. This is analagous to Microsoft creating imaginary software limitations to sell different versions of the same software. I hope you see the absurdity in this, but your long-winded reply has probably already solidified your opinion (read: "pre-determined conclusion").

I personally do not care about some guy ("Bisqwit"?) who has too much time to waste on speed runs. Perhaps some people want to see how far a game can be pushed? Drop this issue. Speed runs are secondary to the primary function of the feature.
In case you didn't notice, my "fuck you" was not directed toward you.

I really do understand your frustration with this issue. Apparently you do not understand mine.
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Post by Gospel »

I thought SNES9x movie files told how many times the video was rerecorded?
Ichinisan
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Post by Ichinisan »

Gospel wrote:I thought SNES9x movie files told how many times the video was rerecorded?
Having such a value stored in the file is just asking for someone to modify it, giving underserved legitimacy to their abuse. Because speed-runs are just one (secondary) use of the movie feature, I would not recommend adding this feature, which will only affect speed runs in a negative way. However, because it would not complicate the creation of demonstrations (the real reason for having a movie feature), I am not completely opposed to it. Those who want to legitimize emulator speed runs should not want such an addition. It's just another feature that can be abused...
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Post by Joe Camacho »

Myster DAHN wrote:Flames and stuff.
I'm so sorry, I can't discuss pointless rambling. For the record, you are the first person to complain about my reading comprehension (And I have been here long enough for someone else to notice it, strangely it hasn't happened). I rest my case.

Just so I contribute something to the thread, aren't .avi optional? I though they weren't going to replace the .zmv system.
*Sometimes I edit my posts just to correct mistakes.
The Sage Of Time
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Post by The Sage Of Time »

Yes, AVI is suppose to be an optional feature in the future.
I rather look forward to it too.
Ichinisan
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Post by Ichinisan »

The Sage Of Time wrote:Yes, AVI is suppose to be an optional feature in the future.
I rather look forward to it too.
Making an AVI of a ZMV will be a common and useful application of this upcoming feature, so the same objections apply.
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