Patching games into NTSC format

[Cyrus]

This has been bothering me for a while... so here is my problem. Certain games such as DBZ Super Boutuden etc, only have english patches that turn the game into PAL format, and if I use something such as SNES Tool to modify that into NTSC the ratio of the screen is changed, or it causes other graphical problems. If I use Zsnes to force it to become NTSC it will have glitches. Plus Zsnes doesn't have an option to keep the "force to NTSC" checked so every time I start zsnes I would have to select that and it gets annoying over time. I don't know if Nach's tool can fix this because I have no idea how to use that and it doesn't seem to have a GUI. I don't know much about emulation so any information would be helpful.

[Nach]

NSRT 2.2 which does have a GUI can do what you want, although I don't see a need for it.

[Cyrus]

Ah... I'll give it a try but I can't seem to find version 2.2 on your site. Is there a faq that explains how the tool works? I found a thread on your site about someone metioning something about making a noob faq but it wasn't complete at the time. Also, why wouldn't there be a need for it?

[xamenus]

I think Nach meant 3.2, which is currently the last version that has a GUI.

Also: http://zsnes.ownsjoo.info/wiki/index.ph ... ROMs/Games

[Deathlike2]

I think what Nach means is that there's no need to change the ROM's setting from PAL to NTSC...

There's no need to, and the problems you mention is a result of forcing such a change...

PAL games require different timings than their NTSC counterparts and therefore this setting should be left alone.

There's no reason to force such a change in the first place...

[Cyrus]

I think Nach meant 3.2, which is currently the last version that has a GUI.

Also: http://zsnes.ownsjoo.info/wiki/index.ph ... ROMs/Games

Thanks I'll give it a shot and see if it works.

I think what Nach means is that there's no need to change the ROM's setting from PAL to NTSC...

There's no need to, and the problems you mention is a result of forcing such a change...

PAL games require different timings than their NTSC counterparts and therefore this setting should be left alone.

There's no reason to force such a change in the first place...

Yes I know the timing is different. PAL, because of the shitty interlaced TVs they have in Europe, has a 50 frame max. I think it stands for phase alternate line which is the same as being interlaced isn't it? There is a huge difference between 50 and 60 frames. Possible because the human brains functions at 60 frams a second (I heard that on some TV show a long time ago, true or false? Who knows).

[funkyass]

NTSC is also shitty interlaced.

but thats irrelevant - you are getting a non-interlaced picture using a snes emulator anyways.

[Cyrus]

NTSC is also shitty interlaced.

but thats irrelevant - you are getting a non-interlaced picture using a snes emulator anyways.

That's good to know... but do you mind explaining to me the reason TVs are interlaced. I thought it had something to do with the voltage difference between north america and europe, and I thought that was why european TVs were interlaced/50 frames.

[Cyrus]

I was going to ask this in my first post but I forgot to ask: Why don't these patches work by remaning the IPS the same thing as the ROM? Is it because they change the format from PAL to NTSC? Or does Zsnes no longer have that option?

[Gil_Hamilton]

NTSC is also shitty interlaced.

but thats irrelevant - you are getting a non-interlaced picture using a snes emulator anyways.

That's good to know... but do you mind explaining to me the reason TVs are interlaced. I thought it had something to do with the voltage difference between north america and europe, and I thought that was why european TVs were interlaced/50 frames.

The refresh rate is tied to AC frequency. Areas with 50Hz power, such as Europe, went with 50Hz TV refresh rates to avoid interference in the image from the power waveform.
Areas with 60Hz AC, such ash the US, went with 60Hz TV for a similar reason.

The interlacing, which basically halves the frame rate to 25 for 50Hz sets and 30 for 60Hz sets, and happens in both NTSC and PAL TVs, was done because the electronics at the time they were designing the current TV standards couldn't update the entire screen in 1/50th or 1/60th of a second. By drawing only every other line in a given field, they doubled the time they had to draw a frame.


Neither the AC waveform noise nor the limited draw speed is an issue anymore. Both are holdovers from TV standards created a half a century ago, and are going to DISAPPEAR when DTV gets rolled out fully.

[adventure_of_link]

Yes, PAL Stands for Phase Alternate Line. But I thought I read somewhere that the human eye can do ~24FPS?
PS: In NTSC, Interlaced is 29.97-30FPS, and Progressive is 59.97-60FPS.

[Cyrus]

Yes, PAL Stands for Phase Alternate Line. But I thought I read somewhere that the human eye can do ~24FPS?
PS: In NTSC, Interlaced is 29.97-30FPS, and Progressive is 59.97-60FPS.

That would explain why most movies are 24fps. But if so, why are games 60fps and why is there such a clear differance between 50 and 60 frames? As for nach's tool I downloaded version 3.2 but I don't see an option to change the region setting. Also, how do I fix the bad checksum caused by patching a game? For that matter what is a checksum >_<

[Jipcy]

But I thought I read somewhere that the human eye can do ~24FPS?

Eyes only capable of 24Hz refresh? I really don't think so. Just think about ZSNES: You can easily tell the difference between a 24 framerate (FPS/Hz) and a 50/60 framerate (FPS/Hz).

At least for me, I can easily see the flicker of my monitor at 60Hz refresh. I usually need at least 100Hz to not see any flicker.

[funkyass]

the snes basis its timing on weather its a PAL or NTSC unit.

[Richard C.]

Some info:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/ju ... .Ns.r.html

[Jipcy]

[As for nach's tool I downloaded version 3.2 but I don't see an option to change the region setting. Also, how do I fix the bad checksum caused by patching a game? For that matter what is a checksum >_<

How many ROMs do you have? If you have a lot (100+), I can give you a mini-tutorial on how to fix them all in one go.

You don't really need to fix the checksums on patched games. If you correctly patched the games, then it's all right for them to have bad checksums. Patched games are *supposed* to have bad checksums.

Also, you should really try to soft-patch your ROMs, if you have a choice. Get an original non-patched ROM, stick an IPS patch for that ROM in whatever folder your SRMs and SAVs go, and make sure Auto-patch is checked in the general ZSNES options box.

What are you doing with the region-changing? You have an NTSC game patched to PAL that you want to force back to NTSC? If so, you should really just delete that game and find a clean one.

[Cyrus]

[As for nach's tool I downloaded version 3.2 but I don't see an option to change the region setting. Also, how do I fix the bad checksum caused by patching a game? For that matter what is a checksum >_<

How many ROMs do you have? If you have a lot (100+), I can give you a mini-tutorial on how to fix them all in one go.

You don't really need to fix the checksums on patched games. If you correctly patched the games, then it's all right for them to have bad checksums. Patched games are *supposed* to have bad checksums.

Also, you should really try to soft-patch your ROMs, if you have a choice. Get an original non-patched ROM, stick an IPS patch for that ROM in whatever folder your SRMs and SAVs go, and make sure Auto-patch is checked in the general ZSNES options box.

What are you doing with the region-changing? You have an NTSC game patched to PAL that you want to force back to NTSC? If so, you should really just delete that game and find a clean one.

I lost all my roms and I have a few at the moment but I will have over 100 as soon as I redownload them, so any tutorial would be helpful. The purpose of making the PAL game to NTSC is so that it will have the tranlation from that patch. There are two patches which can do one or the other: Either from NTSC US to PAL or NTSC Jap to NTSC US to PAL. I do have a clean ROM but this seems to be the only way I can get an NTSC english version of DBZ Super Boutuden... as well as many other games that only have French formatting in their patches. I usually do the "soft patching" but I don't know why it doesn't work anymore, I thought it was a problem with the patch or zsnes no longer supported it. Thanks for explaining that it needs to be where the saves go, I forgot that the new zsnes versions don't save into the same folder the rom is in. Also for some reason when I remove where it is supposed to save to, it still saves to the default folder. How can I make it so that it saves to the folder each rom is in?

[funkyass]

huh?

get the original japanese rom, which is NTSC to begin with.

[Cyrus]

huh?

get the original japanese rom, which is NTSC to begin with.

I said I have that. The patch turns that to PAL in the end and that's the problem, I want it to be translated and be in NTSC. 50 frames seems so choppy to me I get angry just watching it move that slow.

[blackmyst]

But I thought I read somewhere that the human eye can do ~24FPS?

Eyes only capable of 24Hz refresh? I really don't think so. Just think about ZSNES: You can easily tell the difference between a 24 framerate (FPS/Hz) and a 50/60 framerate (FPS/Hz).

At least for me, I can easily see the flicker of my monitor at 60Hz refresh. I usually need at least 100Hz to not see any flicker.

In every article or documentary I've ever seen, it's always mentioned as being around 60-70 fps.

There's one thing that people easily forget though: the actual number has virtually no relation to what you think you're seeing. Try setting your monitor to the highest refresh rate it can handle, which should be well above the limit of what the human eye can see. Now rapidly move your mouse around; you'll see that it's not a smooth movement, you still see the separate position of the cursor in each frame. Yet if you look at your hand moving the mouse around, there is no such effect.

At first sight that would make no sense, but it's easy to understand if you look at the fact that the eye does not have an infinitely small "shutter time". Like any filming device, it captures an the average of what it sees in the time period of each frame. Since the real world has "infinite" fps, that appears to you as motion blur. And that's the same reason why movies at 24 fps don't look stuttery, the camera captures the blur, and it looks natural to us.

So you see why we're not going to have real motion blur (as in, not using inaccurate but cheaper methods) in games for a long time, not even the next gen, because it involves rendering a very high number of frames, probably more than twenty to fifty times as many as usual, to make it look like actual blur.

*cough* ok, anyway..

huh?

get the original japanese rom, which is NTSC to begin with.

I said I have that. The patch turns that to PAL in the end and that's the problem, I want it to be translated and be in NTSC. 50 frames seems so choppy to me I get angry just watching it move that slow.

Actually, if it were a smooth 50 fps, you wouldn't see the difference in terms of choppiness (a 10 frame difference every second is invisible. It only gives you a bigger headache from the flickering, that's all), it's just that a 50 hz game and a 60 hz display device make poor bedfellows.

As for your problem of not wanting to have to force NTSC every time you play, you could always make a shortcut to load the game through the commandline and use -t to force ntsc.......at least that's what I was gonna say but I just found out the -t option doesn't seem to work (I've sucessfully loaded the game and used several other commandline options in one shortcut, the problem is the -t) as well as the -u option. Devs?

[Nach]

I think Nach meant 3.2, which is currently the last version that has a GUI.

No, I said 2.2 and that's exactly what I mean.

http://www.geocities.com/joecool22us/nsrt-22.zip

[Nightcrawler]

Ok.. I'm going to set the record straight here and stop all this false information from spreading.

24fps is the rate at which movies were established because that was found to be the rate at which our eyes started to preceive motion out of the successive still shots.

The eye can perceive MUCH more than 30fps or 60fps.. or even 100fps. Any fixed number is a myth and pure BS. There is no real answer. How many frames needed to make things look smoothley to you may differ from someone else. It is also dependent on the lighting and enviroment and many other factors. The 60fps rule of thumb for games simply means that motion will probably appear pleasantly fluent to most people at or above 60fps. That's about all it means though.

This article makes many of the points I am trying to make and does a much better job explaining them.

http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_c ... ns_see.htm

[Guest]

And the point of all that was?.............

[Agozer]

And the point of all that was?.............

You didn't read the thread at all did you?

[adventure_of_link]

CF, you fail at bumping threads, please kindly stop.
Nightcrawler: Thanks for clearing things up.
FireKnight: I have a similar patch on my HDD which converts the JAP edition of DBZ Super Butoden III to the French version, and even makes it PAL.