Translated SO on original hardware

eggz · Post by **eggz** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:25 pm

Hi everyone, this is my first post. I just joined these fine forums.

Im using my newly bought SNES SuperFlash Cart to play all great old RPG's for the SNES on the original hardware, which is a great experience. Thanks to DeJap and others im able to play some of the best RPG's ever made, in ENGLSIH, like Seiken Densetsu 3, Tales of Phantasia etc. However, one of the greatest games ever in my opinion, Star Ocean, is not playable on my flashcart due to its incompability with the S-DD1 Chip.

I got this from www.dejap.com :

Star Ocean's graphics are hardware compressed within the rom and decompressed via a custom addon hardware chip. zsKnight, The Dumper and Dark Force have worked hard to get the graphics extracted from the real rom so that the game could be playable on SNES emulators. [...] Recently, the S-DD1 decompression algorithm was completely reverse engineered by some really clever people: Andreas Naive and The Dumper. Pretty soon these "troublesome" graphics pack files will no longer be needed to play Star Ocean."

Does this meen the ROM can be patched to play on a flashcart that does not have S-DD1 Chip support? Or does it simply meen that the Emulators will be able to emulate the S-DD1 Chip? Playing SO in english on the original hardware would be a dream come true for me.

Anyone have ANY information on this issue. I've searched the web and the forums but have not found any interesting info.

Thank you.

Post by **Agozer** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:33 pm

The way I see it, a flash card would still need to support the S-DD1, since the chip is a co-processor... but I could be talking out of my ass.

anewuser · Post by **anewuser** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:46 pm

@Agozer: I kind of believe it so, too. Now, you shouldn´t quote me.

Post by **Agozer** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:09 pm

anewuser wrote:You better check (don´t ask for roms!) the people over at the fruity site (CR) forums.

I think you shouldn't even mention that site's name here...

neviksti · Post by **neviksti** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:44 pm

I already responded to you message at tototek's boards.

But I might as well summarize here:
- I hacked the game to no longer need the features of the SDD1 chip.
- Currently you need a 96Mbit (or greater) GameDoctor SF7 to play it.
- 64Mbits looks feasible, but I am not working on it

Check fruity site (CR) forums to see details of how I did it if you are interested.

Kagerato · Post by **Kagerato** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:59 pm

neviksti is god.

Tallgeese · Post by **Tallgeese** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:19 pm

Without any detriment in game quality...?

Damn, he shamed the programmers. LOL

neviksti · Post by **neviksti** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:35 pm

X Prime wrote:Without any detriment in game quality...?

Damn, he shamed the programmers. LOL

Well, they are more worried about profit. What is cheaper: more ROM, or a decompression chip? Apparently they got to the point where the decompression chip was cheaper.

I actually haven't played the game yet. The chip is used so often, that by the time I got the game to actually run ... well, it's almost an all or nothing thing. So I didn't really have to play far to test it.

However, some people have played it all the way through and says it works fine.

Noxious Ninja · Post by **Noxious Ninja** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:05 am

neviksti wrote:I already responded to you message at tototek's boards.

But I might as well summarize here:
- I hacked the game to no longer need the features of the SDD1 chip.
- Currently you need a 96Mbit (or greater) GameDoctor SF7 to play it.
- 64Mbits looks feasible, but I am not working on it

Check fruity site (CR) forums to see details of how I did it if you are interested.

Good lord. You actually managed it. You're both amazingly amazing and amazingly dedicated.

eggz · Post by **eggz** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:46 am

How much $ would it take for you to make the rom fit 64mbit ?

Great work, lets hope someone wants to take up that task, atleast thats what I and many other SuperFlash and SWCDX owners (and probably lots of other ppl to) would like !

Great work hacking this rom neviksti !!

Post by **grinvader** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:55 am

Hmm.

I suppose he'd have to compress the graphics slightly using a default graphics compression method supported by the standard SNES hardware without any kind of extra coprocessor.
So the hassle would be to find the best method for each graphical data, compress it, put it at a certain offset, hack the main code of the game so it loads said graphic using previous offset AND corresponding software decompression algorithm.
Some of the size saved thanks to compression would be used to place the software decompression routines.

Big hack job. I can easily understand why he doesn't really want to do it.

neviksti · Post by **neviksti** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:55 pm

I already had to do most of those things (insert my own "decompressor" at every damn place the thing is used, an "offset lookup table" (currently using a crude hash table for speed), and inserting the new graphics data). The only difference is the "decompressor" is currently just "copy data directly"

The big problem is that since they have a hardware decompressor, they can use it anywhere including VBlank (which is too time sensitive). This means I need to actually preempt the decompression (find where it sets the address to decompress and decompress it to a scratch pad area where the VBlank can then access it). Also, the shear number of decompressions means I HAVE to use the graphics pack method for most things ... and somehow need to decide which decompressions are "non time-sensitive" enough that I can compress the graphics.

I have ideas how to start all this, but not knowing if it will even work before I do all that makes me not very motivated. Plus, my original motivation was just to see if it could be done.

eggz wrote:How much $ would it take for you to make the rom fit 64mbit ?

If you want to give money to someone, give it to DeJap. They did much much more than me to make this enjoyable to all.

If you really want this, I could probably cut down on how time consuming it is if you are willing to do many "tests/tweaks".

In particular, I only have a chance to fit everything if I remove all the currently compressed graphics. Unfortunately, some tests suggest the data is "intertwined" in other data (if the data sequence they needed for a compressed graphic was already in the ROM code/data/whatever, they just used that as the offset instead of inserting more data). Honestly, the tests that suggested this were from a long time ago, and I may have made wrong conclusions (which I'm strongly hoping).

Anyway, if you're willing to help, it will consist of something like this:
1) play through the game and get a decent set of "test real time saves" so you can quickly check out most of the game (there may be such sets already available at Zophar or other emu-places)
2) run a script (which I'll provide) to remove some compressed data ... check if it's okay
3) repeat and note what graphpics can't be removed

NOTE: If removing all the compressed data doesn't affect the game, this will be a happily short test

Also, only one emulator is currently capable of playing my StarOcean hack. I don't believe it is public yet, so if you are interested, just let me know and I'll ask the author if I can give you a copy (probably not a problem).

...hmm, just realized I don't know if his emulator can use ZST files. I'll check into that. If not, you'll definitely have to make your own set of test saves (which is probably a good thing anyway, since any ZST's you find will be technically for a different ROM).

eggz · Post by **eggz** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:24 pm

That would be great! Im not very experienced in romhacking and perhaps someone with more experience would be willing to help out. In eigther case im willing to do whatever it takes to make this happen

. I can do the "tests/tweaks", no problem.

Maybe somone else here or at fruity site (CR) has savestates from the hacked SO rom.

Anyway, if your willing to try (and like you said, it might just be a happily short test), I, and im sure many other, would be very grateful for your effort. I would also like to thank you, the guys at DeJap and all the other ppl in the scene for translating/hacking these great games and making them playable for all of us non japanese speaking ppl. Keep up the good work.

Zuzma · Post by **Zuzma** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:33 am

I'm guessing this is the emulator you were talking about http://users.tpg.com.au/trauma/spx/ . It has very good compatiblity but it runs too fast and it apears to me that it doesn't have any kind of sound emulation. But I guess it's more for developers anyway so I'll just stick with the other ones.

neviksti · Post by **neviksti** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:47 am

Yeah, that's it.
For developing programs for the SNES or ROM hacking ... that emulator is awesome. I love it.

eggz:
> In eigther case im willing to do whatever it takes to make this happen .
> I can do the "tests/tweaks", no problem

Okay, I'll look into it. I'll get back to you in a few days (you use Windows 9x/XP/whatever as your operating system, correct? ... because I'll need you to use the emulator mentioned above).

Like you said, hopefully the surgery of "compressed data removal" will be painless ... but I'm doubting it. Hopefully my initial assumptions about the data were wrong. We shall see.

Post by **Nach** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:58 pm

neviksti wrote: Also, only one emulator is currently capable of playing my StarOcean hack. I don't believe it is public yet, so if you are interested, just let me know and I'll ask the author if I can give you a copy (probably not a problem).

If it's the emulator I think you're referring to, it only supports upto 64Mb (at least based on the readme.html), same as Snes9x.

neviksti wrote: ...hmm, just realized I don't know if his emulator can use ZST files. I'll check into that. If not, you'll definitely have to make your own set of test saves (which is probably a good thing anyway, since any ZST's you find will be technically for a different ROM).

He just added his own state save feature last month, I doubt he got around to supporting ZSTs yet.

Edit: That's what I get for not continuing to read the whole thread

zuzma already pointed out the emulator.

It does have sound emulation, it's just not outputted anywhere.

Zuzma · Post by **Zuzma** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:09 pm

Nach wrote:Edit: That's what I get for not continuing to read the whole thread zuzma already pointed out the emulator.

It does have sound emulation, it's just not outputted anywhere.

Yea I kinda noticed that after I looked at the state inspector in the tools menu but I was too lazy to change my post.

Edit: It plays nes games O.o and I think he's adding super gameboy support. I loaded up the super gameboy rom and it said there was no cart inserted. Then I loaded a regular gameboy game after that and it thinks there's a cart in it.

neviksti · Post by **neviksti** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:29 am

Update:
I tried to setup the test today and ran into a problem I wasn't expecting. There appears to be an error in my copy of the SDD1 compression code (I probably goofed something up). I had to change some stuff to get it to compile, and didn't notice any errors until now ... other data on my backup CD is messed up as well, so that's probably the culprit. I emailed the author and hopefully he'll send me his copy of the code again (which I believe he updated as well).

Eggz, you didn't answer my previous question:
Do you use Windows 9x/XP/etc ? If not, unfortunately, you probably won't be able to help me (unless zsnes or snes9x starts supporting GD3 rom mappings).

eggz · Post by **eggz** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:12 pm

Sorry man. Yes I use XP atm, so that wont be a prob. Thanks again for you effort.

neviksti · Post by **neviksti** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:35 pm

Update:
I have a flash cart from them now, and have been investigating the hardware.
You can read the details on the fruity site (CR) forum if you want, but here's a copy of the punchline -

neviksti wrote: People have been asking me about StarOcean on this cart...
Well, it would be a tight fit in 64Mbits, but the error in the CPLD logic which always enables sram in banks $70-77 (even for HiROM) takes away so much data (512kBytes of space!) that I don't think I'll even continue the investigation for trying to fit StarOcean on this thing.

Sorry guys

This isn't a problem due to wiring on the cart, but due to the logic in the CPLD. These chips are programmed with custom logic before shipping to the customer, therefore if you contact tototek, they may be willing to correct the logic on a cart.

Post by **grinvader** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:17 pm

That's a whole waste of 4 Mbit...

Zuzma · Post by **Zuzma** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:10 am

Damn and I was thinking of getting a flashcart to play Star Ocean.

Post by **grinvader** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:03 pm

zuzma wrote:Damn and I was thinking of getting a flashcart to play Star Ocean.

How much costs a 96MB GameDoctor 7 ?

Zuzma · Post by **Zuzma** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:06 pm

Around 100 bucks but I don't like those big honking backup uints so I'd rather use a flash cart. Anyway I wasn't necessarily going to buy it. I tried ordering a z64 awhile back and was put on a back order for a long ass time so I just cancled my order. Luckly I did it before the website disappeared. I really don't like dealing with shady companies like these.

Arsenic Toast · Post by **Arsenic Toast** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:41 pm

Okay, I don't have a lot of time, so bear with me, but I was wanting to know if there's a way to simply transfer the translated SO ROM to the original SO cart, seeing as how the cart already has the chip in it and doesn't require a load of space for decompressed graphics data, and all I'm doing is changing the text around, is it possible? If so, please explain how, it would be really awesome. Thanks!