Help me complete my library.

etabeta · Post by **etabeta** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:35 pm

makaron sounds promising for DC, but still needs a lot of work

for N64, welcome to the plugin hell

mudlord · Post by **mudlord** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:40 pm

for N64, welcome to the plugin hell

Its not really plugin hell if you choose the most compatible stuff out there which is:

Video: Glide64
Sound: Jabo's audio
RSP: Jabo's RSP
Input: any input plugin

etabeta · Post by **etabeta** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:15 pm

until the moment you decide to try one of the few games which only work with the latest ziggy LLE plugin (I recall a soccer game and a racing game, at least) and require a hacked savestate to avoid hanging at start...

that's why I hate the whole current N64 emulation: for the most part it seems a huge pile of per-game hacks which work by chance in most of the cases

real emulation should require only to load a cart dump and do small tunings to avoid possible minor glitches...

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:04 pm

mudlord wrote:
for N64, welcome to the plugin hell
Its not really plugin hell if you choose the most compatible stuff out there which is:

Video: Glide64
Sound: Jabo's audio
RSP: Jabo's RSP
Input: any input plugin

You forgot "3DFX videocard or GLIDE-DirectX/OpenGL wrapper"

The fact that a hardware-specific solution is the only working option is just sad.

Anyways, any emu that uses plugins extensively is fundamentally flawed, from what I've seen.
ePSXe is the NESticle of PS1 emulators.
N64 still hasn't gotten out of the period where being a NESticle is a bad thing. Tell me when soemone steps up and writes a pSX for N64.

I.S.T. · Post by **I.S.T.** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:27 am

I think calling ePSXe the nesticle of PS1 emulation is a bit harsh. With the PEOPS software plugin, the PEOPS cdrom plugin and the Eternal sound plugin most things will run just fine.

ShadowFX · Post by **ShadowFX** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:30 am

Gil_Hamilton wrote:The fact that a hardware-specific solution is the only working option is just sad.

Anyways, any emu that uses plugins extensively is fundamentally flawed, from what I've seen.
ePSXe is the NESticle of PS1 emulators.
N64 still hasn't gotten out of the period where being a NESticle is a bad thing. Tell me when soemone steps up and writes a pSX for N64.

I was also more or less at a point where I stopped using N64 emulators because of this (my choice, but okay). I'm also really waiting for something to come out pluginless like pSX.

This might interest you, even though it is meant for MESS eventually (I believe): http://moogle-tech.com/blog/

Thebullfrog · Post by **Thebullfrog** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:47 am

That sounds kinda promising actually. I honestly didn't know that there were that many problems in N64 emulation. I know a couple people that play with PJ64 and swear by it. Interesting. Looks like other than MAME I may be about done collecting new Emu's for the time being.

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:44 am

I.S.T. wrote:I think calling ePSXe the nesticle of PS1 emulation is a bit harsh. With the PEOPS software plugin, the PEOPS cdrom plugin and the Eternal sound plugin most things will run just fine.

It's not an overly-accurate emulator, it's basically dead, the entire plugin system is fundamentally flawed, and pSX is infinitely superior in every way except "ZOMG IT AM PRETTIERERER!".
And yet ePSXe is still the top-recommended emu.

NESticle is reasonably compatible too. It's not GREAT, but it's "good enough."
Most of the hate shoveled on it is that everyone continued to recommend it as the top YEARS after better programs had come along, and if a ROM image didn't work in NESticle, it was deemed a bad dump.
...
Oh, and the NESticle hacks didn't help.

mudlord · Post by **mudlord** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:18 pm

the entire plugin system is fundamentally flawed

Elaborate.

Tell me when someone steps up and writes a pSX for N64.

Agreed. And with decent speed too...And with LLE GFX. Which doesn't need quad core CPUs to operate even somewhat fast.

Although, HLE is needed for hi-res graphics packs to work....

Clements · Post by **Clements** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:57 pm

pSX still has much lower compatibility than ePSXe at the moment.

neo_bahamut1985 · Post by **neo_bahamut1985** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:54 pm

Yeah, pSX does have lower compat, but, it's gradually becoming my emulator of choice (not that I really care about the lack of gpu plugins) but the sound I noticed is slightly better; not to mention how Breath of Fire IV runs better in huge levels (i.e. Wyndia) where ePSXe slows down. Now only if they'd have a PSX emulator for the gamecube/wii...

Tallgeese · Post by **Tallgeese** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:49 pm

mudlord wrote:
Tell me when someone steps up and writes a pSX for N64.
Agreed. And with decent speed too...And with LLE GFX. Which doesn't need quad core CPUs to operate even somewhat fast. Although, HLE is needed for hi-res graphics packs to work....

I find the hi-res packs are horribly ugly myself...

etabeta · Post by **etabeta** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:55 pm

and I really don't know where they fit in something which claim to be 'emulation'

Neo Kaiser · Post by **Neo Kaiser** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:09 pm

pSX is a good PS emulator but it is still on early stages. It can't even cut the protection of games like Legend of Dragoon and Strider 2. It also require the
d3dx9_26.dll file to work that in some machines you must download it and place on the Windows/System folder. *Edit*I wonder why those machines don't have that file even when the updates on Windows XP...they have Direct X 9c installed...

Clements · Post by **Clements** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:25 pm

d3dx9_xx.dll files are included in the bimonthly DirectX updates. The current update was released in March, this month.

Neo Kaiser · Post by **Neo Kaiser** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:42 pm

Clements wrote:d3dx9_xx.dll files are included in the bimonthly DirectX updates. The current update was released in March, this month.

Now I know why those machines didn't have the file. It result that the persons who have them didn't had a genuine copy of Windows XP installed so they can't update anymore.

Post by **grinvader** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:02 pm

Neo Kaiser wrote:didn't had a genuine copy (...) can't update anymore.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

oh wow
AHAHAHAHAHAHA

Neo Kaiser · Post by **Neo Kaiser** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:11 pm

grinvader wrote:
Neo Kaiser wrote:didn't had a genuine copy (...) can't update anymore.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

oh wow
AHAHAHAHAHAHA

Last time they updated a spyware made by M$ was installed (easy to uninstall mind you). Your laughter brigs me hope as there is something that i have not found yet.

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:03 pm

mudlord wrote:
the entire plugin system is fundamentally flawed
Elaborate.

I would think the problems with offloading large portions of the core emulation to external programs was self-evident.

Especially when the video plugins are often wrapping PS commands to DirectX or OpenGL instead of emulating the video hardware.

etabeta · Post by **etabeta** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:44 am

to be honest, the plugin structure can be used also in a different (definitely better) way. take a look to e.g. pcsx2

it's just the way it's been used for psx & n64 emus to be flawed. and actually, they could have create emus with the same problems without using any plugins... the problem is in the kind of HLE used (FreeDo is another example): patch the game code on a per-game basis should never be expected to do miracles

I.S.T. · Post by **I.S.T.** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:46 am

Gil_Hamilton wrote:
I.S.T. wrote:I think calling ePSXe the nesticle of PS1 emulation is a bit harsh. With the PEOPS software plugin, the PEOPS cdrom plugin and the Eternal sound plugin most things will run just fine.
It's not an overly-accurate emulator, it's basically dead, the entire plugin system is fundamentally flawed, and pSX is infinitely superior in every way except "ZOMG IT AM PRETTIERERER!".
And yet ePSXe is still the top-recommended emu.

NESticle is reasonably compatible too. It's not GREAT, but it's "good enough."
Most of the hate shoveled on it is that everyone continued to recommend it as the top YEARS after better programs had come along, and if a ROM image didn't work in NESticle, it was deemed a bad dump.
...
Oh, and the NESticle hacks didn't help.

ePSXe runs a lot of games pSX still cannot or has problems running. It's also got better sound emulation in the form of Eternal, IIRC.

mudlord · Post by **mudlord** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:43 am

the problem is in the kind of HLE used (FreeDo is another example): patch the game code on a per-game basis should never be expected to do miracles

Especially when the video plugins are often wrapping PS commands to DirectX or OpenGL instead of emulating the video hardware.

More like emulating the game's software, which leads to issues with games with custom microcodes, like Rogue Squadron. So I understand the issues Gil_Hamilton is getting at about the plugin system. I don't see it really patching games on a individual basis: more like patching on a game video/audio ucode basis...which leaves around 8 unemulated games in GFX HLE...

Post by **grinvader** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:29 am

I.S.T. wrote:It's also got better sound emulation in the form of Eternal, IIRC.

You remember incorrectly.

(July 2007)

Code: Select all

29 23:49:00 <pSXAuthor>	"jikkyou oshaberi parodius tokimeki - forever with me" is a completely insane game ;p
29 23:50:13 <grinvader>	pSXAuthor: that's the saturn one, right ?
29 23:50:26 <pSXAuthor>	and ps1
29 23:50:31 <pSXAuthor>	just fixed it in pSX
29 23:50:52 <pSXAuthor>	in fact... i think pSX is the only emulator that plays it (due to some tricky spu irq business it does)
29 23:51:06 <pSXAuthor>	ePSXe definately doesn't anyway
29 23:51:45 <grinvader>	nice work
29 23:52:22 <pSXAuthor>	it definately wins the "most extreme spu irq timing" prize ;p - it sets an irq every 128 bytes played for its streams ;p
29 23:52:37 <pSXAuthor>	and it sets irqs on the first byte played which is very strange!
29 23:52:47 <grinvader>	what about valkyrie profile ?
29 23:52:58 <pSXAuthor>	valkyrie profile was every 256 bytes i think
29 23:53:02 <grinvader>	heh
29 23:53:05 <grinvader>	i see
29 23:53:07 <pSXAuthor>	but yeah - that was nasty too ;p
29 23:53:19 <grinvader>	good work
29 23:53:44 <pSXAuthor>	dunno why they did that - i mean.. you've got a whole 512kb for sound... why do they _have_ to use a 256 byte stream buffer? ;p
29 23:54:09 <pagefault>	SNES stylez
29 23:54:20 <pSXAuthor>	even on SNES that would be very small
29 23:54:35 <pSXAuthor>	in fact - on SNES that would be bad - you don't want to be handling irqs that often
29 23:54:45 <pSXAuthor>	actually SPC700 didn't have IRQs though did it?
29 23:54:51 <pagefault>	it was running an IRQ on every line?
29 23:55:54 <pSXAuthor>	well it sets an irq every 128 bytes on its streaming channel, assuming its playing 44khz (which it sounds like) thats 1378 irqs/sec!
29 23:56:08 <pSXAuthor>	which is slightly extreme if you ask me ;p
29 23:56:09 <pagefault>	no SPC can't issue an IRQ
29 23:56:24 <pSXAuthor>	given how much overhead there is going to be handling the irqs ;p
29 23:56:25 <SamB>	what does it need an irq for?
29 23:56:32 <grinvader>	pSXAuthor: yea that's the crazy guys at tri-Ace for you
29 23:56:35 <pSXAuthor>	double buffering in its circular stream buffer
29 23:56:46 <grinvader>	(and apparently the oshaberi guys too)
29 23:56:53 <pagefault>	sounds slow
29 23:56:57 <SamB>	pSXAuthor: it would be both impossible and irrelevant on SPC
29 23:57:02 <pagefault>	IRQ was a massive performance hit on the SNES
29 23:57:08 <pSXAuthor>	spu plays the first 128 bytes, irq triggers, spu starts playing the next 128 bytes while the cpu sets up a dma to the first 128 bytes, etc.. etc...
29 23:57:12 <pagefault>	dunno about PSX
29 23:57:27 <SamB>	the dsp handles its own buffering just fine ;-)
29 23:57:29 <pSXAuthor>	yeah - its not good on PSX ;p
29 23:57:48 <pSXAuthor>	SamB: not really - you still have to service streams if you are going to do that (think ToP)

Eternal has an IRQ hack to make VP work. Check if it's good enough for that game.

creaothceann · Post by **creaothceann** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:10 pm

grinvader wrote:

Code: Select all

29 23:52:22 <pSXAuthor> it definately wins the "most extreme spu irq timing" prize ;p - it sets an irq every 128 bytes played for its streams ;p

"Damn latency... there must be some way to minimize it!"
- devs