View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:19 am



Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 
BSNES Blur 
Author Message
Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 8:12 am
Posts: 480
Location: Canada
Reply with quote
Post BSNES Blur
Once upon a time on a forgotten OS using a forgotten version of ZSNES I had ZSNES set to use 2xSaI and gave the ideal look (for me) out of all the settings available. I assume this look was achievable under Windows 98 and XP. I've been using Vista 64 for quite a long time now and when I use those same settings it quite simply looks like crap.

Recently I decided to try out BSNES to see how far along it's come and I noticed it has an option called 'Smooth Video Output' which looks very much like ZSNES' interpolation filter. When combined with 2xSaI it gives that appearance which I wanted to use.

Here is a pic:
Image

So I'm wondering if someone can explain to me what this smoothing option in BSNES is exactly and why ZSNES no longer gets that look in Vista?


Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:27 am
Profile
Reply with quote
Post 
Yeah, I can do that.

There's both hardware and software filters involved. Software is 2xSaI, and is what stretches the 256x224 input to 512x448. After that, you have to fit it to your output window, say 1024x768. This is where the hardware filter comes in.

There are two types of hardware filters: pixellated (point) and smooth (linear). What you want is smooth, but what ZSNES is giving you is pixellated.

ZSNES uses DirectDraw to render video. DirectDraw doesn't let you choose whether to use point or linear. It seems like up to Windows XP it always used smooth, but many drivers, including yours, use point as of Vista and later. Don't ask me why they changed it, and no, it's not a setting you can control.

bsnes uses Direct3D and OpenGL, which let you choose whether to use point or linear. Hence the "Smooth video output" option.

No workaround, sadly.


Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:47 am
Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 8:12 am
Posts: 480
Location: Canada
Reply with quote
Post 
byuu wrote:
Yeah, I can do that.

There's both hardware and software filters involved. Software is 2xSaI, and is what stretches the 256x224 input to 512x448. After that, you have to fit it to your output window, say 1024x768. This is where the hardware filter comes in.

There are two types of hardware filters: pixellated (point) and smooth (linear). What you want is smooth, but what ZSNES is giving you is pixellated.

ZSNES uses DirectDraw to render video. DirectDraw doesn't let you choose whether to use point or linear. It seems like up to Windows XP it always used smooth, but many drivers, including yours, use point as of Vista and later. Don't ask me why they changed it, and no, it's not a setting you can control.

bsnes uses Direct3D and OpenGL, which let you choose whether to use point or linear. Hence the "Smooth video output" option.

No workaround, sadly.

Thanks for the explanation.

While I'm at it, rather than start a new thread I might as well ask about one more thing about the appearance. The default aspect ratio for SNES games seems to be 8:7 and the emulators have the option to stretch them out to 4:3. What is the proper ratio supposed to be? As in was the 8:7 made the way it was to look proper when stretched to 4:3? Or is the option to stretch it to 4:3 is just there in emulators to simulate TVs, meaning TVs ruined the proper look? Wow I worded that awkwardly.


Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:11 am
Profile
Buzzkill Gil

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:14 pm
Posts: 4259
Reply with quote
Post 
Cyrus wrote:
Or is the option to stretch it to 4:3 is just there in emulators to simulate TVs, meaning TVs ruined the proper look?

You've really answered your own question there.

Do you REALLY think the games were designed for you to stick your finger in a socket and read bits straight off of RAM?
Or were they designed to be displayed on a TV?



Spoilers: They were designed to be viewed on a TV. Stretching to 4:3 is The Right Way To Do Things.

_________________
Squall_Leonhart wrote:
Quote:
You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


KHDownloads


Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:55 am
Profile
Starzinger Addict
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:14 pm
Posts: 998
Location: Sweden
Reply with quote
Post 
Well, PAL TV's ruined 'the proper look' alright.

_________________
- Oskar's chiptunes -


Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:10 am
Profile WWW
Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 8:12 am
Posts: 480
Location: Canada
Reply with quote
Post 
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
You've really answered your own question there.

Do you REALLY think the games were designed for you to stick your finger in a socket and read bits straight off of RAM?
Or were they designed to be displayed on a TV?



Spoilers: They were designed to be viewed on a TV. Stretching to 4:3 is The Right Way To Do Things.

Well they don't look designed to be viewed at 4:3 because things seem to be out of proportion at 4:3. Like the portals in CT are ovals at 4:3 but perfect circles at 8:7. Seems more like they said "Fuck it, no one will notice that it's stretched out a bit".


Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:33 am
Profile
Starzinger Addict
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:14 pm
Posts: 998
Location: Sweden
Reply with quote
Post 
Cyrus wrote:
Well they don't look designed to be viewed at 4:3 because things seem to be out of proportion at 4:3. Like the portals in CT are ovals at 4:3 but perfect circles at 8:7. Seems more like they said "Fuck it, no one will notice that it's stretched out a bit".

On the other hand; do you really think they did not intend for the moon to be round?
Image
You're probably just too used to the wrong ratio.

_________________
- Oskar's chiptunes -


Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:00 am
Profile WWW
Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 8:12 am
Posts: 480
Location: Canada
Reply with quote
Post 
Johan_H wrote:
Cyrus wrote:
Well they don't look designed to be viewed at 4:3 because things seem to be out of proportion at 4:3. Like the portals in CT are ovals at 4:3 but perfect circles at 8:7. Seems more like they said "Fuck it, no one will notice that it's stretched out a bit".

On the other hand; do you really think they did not intend for the moon to be round?
Image
You're probably just too used to the wrong ratio.

Lol, I never even noticed that, I just loaded up stuff so anything I've seen recently would be at the start of the game. But as for an actual answer, who knows, I wouldn't put it past them to design things without proper proportions in mind. I probably am just used to the wrong ratio.


Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:19 am
Profile
Buzzkill Gil

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:14 pm
Posts: 4259
Reply with quote
Post 
Cyrus wrote:
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
You've really answered your own question there.

Do you REALLY think the games were designed for you to stick your finger in a socket and read bits straight off of RAM?
Or were they designed to be displayed on a TV?



Spoilers: They were designed to be viewed on a TV. Stretching to 4:3 is The Right Way To Do Things.

Well they don't look designed to be viewed at 4:3 because things seem to be out of proportion at 4:3. Like the portals in CT are ovals at 4:3 but perfect circles at 8:7. Seems more like they said "Fuck it, no one will notice that it's stretched out a bit".
I'mma have to fire CT up again...

*does so*

Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle-in-law.... you're right, they AREN'T circular!


My bet is it was a considered sacrifice. Treating the pixels as square makes the opening/closing animation far easier to draw/calculate(depending on how they generate the effect).

_________________
Squall_Leonhart wrote:
Quote:
You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


KHDownloads


Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:13 am
Profile
Reply with quote
Post 
It's the same with Super Metroid. The morph ball is just a 16x16 square sprite so it looks round with square pixels, but the planets in the intro/ending sequence are made to be circular in the proper 4:3 aspect ratio.


Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:38 am
Reply with quote
Post 
It doesn't really matter much comparing individual sprites.

Some developers probably designed with square pixels in mind, while others took the aspect ratio into account. Maybe they did the former and noticed the problem only on gigantic images like a fullscreen moon graphic. We can't know how the original artists intended things to look.

But what we do know is how it looked to 99.9% of people actually playing SNES games in the 90s, and that's what correct aspect ratio does ;)


Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:50 pm
ZSNES Shake Shake Prinny

Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:15 pm
Posts: 5621
Location: PAL50, dood !
Reply with quote
Post 
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
Do you REALLY think the games were designed for you to stick your finger in a socket and read bits straight off of RAM?

gzzzzzzzzzzzzt


byuu wrote:
But what we do know is how it looked to 99.9% of people actually playing SNES games in the 90s, and that's what correct aspect ratio does ;)

Hey, are you insinuating that PAL50 doods represented 0.1% of the people actually playing SNES games in the 90s ?
Cause that's a nice one.



If by nice you mean raeg.

_________________
皆黙って俺について来い!!
Code:
<jmr> bsnes has the most accurate wiki page but it takes forever to load (or something)

Pantheon: Gideon Zhi | CaitSith2 | Nach | kode54


Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:56 pm
Profile
Starzinger Addict
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:14 pm
Posts: 998
Location: Sweden
Reply with quote
Post 
grinvader wrote:
byuu wrote:
But what we do know is how it looked to 99.9% of people actually playing SNES games in the 90s, and that's what correct aspect ratio does ;)

Hey, are you insinuating that PAL50 doods represented 0.1% of the people actually playing SNES games in the 90s ?

Obviously byuu doesn't count Europeans and Australians as people!
byuu, you racist! >:U

_________________
- Oskar's chiptunes -


Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:13 pm
Profile WWW
Reply with quote
Post 
Huh? Correct aspect ratio takes the current TV region into account.

PAL users get even wider stretched images, along with the extra scanlines that are almost always black.


Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:24 pm
Buzzkill Gil

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:14 pm
Posts: 4259
Reply with quote
Post 
grinvader wrote:
byuu wrote:
But what we do know is how it looked to 99.9% of people actually playing SNES games in the 90s, and that's what correct aspect ratio does ;)

Hey, are you insinuating that PAL50 doods represented 0.1% of the people actually playing SNES games in the 90s ?
PAL doesn't exist. Stop tormenting me with your filthy lies of inferior TVs that flicker!

_________________
Squall_Leonhart wrote:
Quote:
You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


KHDownloads


Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:48 pm
Profile
ZSNES Shake Shake Prinny

Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:15 pm
Posts: 5621
Location: PAL50, dood !
Reply with quote
Post 
but our colours didn't change while scrolling horizontally lawl

oh yeah i just saw an ad for a stupid expensive 600Hz plasma screen
yay for blast processing

_________________
皆黙って俺について来い!!
Code:
<jmr> bsnes has the most accurate wiki page but it takes forever to load (or something)

Pantheon: Gideon Zhi | CaitSith2 | Nach | kode54


Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:01 am
Profile
Starzinger Addict
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:14 pm
Posts: 998
Location: Sweden
Reply with quote
Post 
PAL60 ftw
Though I hear people say the colors are wrong or whatever, I never noticed anything.

_________________
- Oskar's chiptunes -


Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:33 am
Profile WWW
Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 8:12 am
Posts: 480
Location: Canada
Reply with quote
Post 
grinvader wrote:
but our colours didn't change while scrolling horizontally lawl

oh yeah i just saw an ad for a stupid expensive 600Hz plasma screen
yay for blast processing

I feel old for getting that.


Okay, so the final conclusion is that the developers fucked up and there is no proper ratio, huzzah.


Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:03 am
Profile
Seen it all
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:04 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
Reply with quote
Post 
Proper ratio is 4:3.

_________________
vSNES | Delphi 10 BPLs
bsnes launcher with recent files list


Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:56 pm
Profile WWW
Zealot

Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:36 pm
Posts: 1147
Location: Place.
Reply with quote
Post 
Ughhhh not this shit again.

I bet there are still goofballs out there that insist on playing CPS2 games in the "original" 1.71:1 ratio, as well.

_________________
Procrastination.
Hard Work Often Pays Off After Time, but Laziness Always Pays Off Now.


Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:17 pm
Profile
Official tech support dood

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:57 am
Posts: 2098
Reply with quote
Post 
you mean psylocke isn't supposed to be short and fat? :P

_________________
Why yes, my shift key *IS* broken.


Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:22 pm
Profile
ZSNES Shake Shake Prinny

Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:15 pm
Posts: 5621
Location: PAL50, dood !
Reply with quote
Post 
only if it is bbwpsylocke

also the word is 'plump'

_________________
皆黙って俺について来い!!
Code:
<jmr> bsnes has the most accurate wiki page but it takes forever to load (or something)

Pantheon: Gideon Zhi | CaitSith2 | Nach | kode54


Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:47 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 22 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software.