NES Color Palette of Choice

Announce new emulators, discuss which games run best under each emulator, and much much more.

Moderator: General Mods

Post Reply
creaothceann
Seen it all
Posts: 2302
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by creaothceann »

Dmog wrote:What exactly IS the deal with the way NES generate(d) colors that makes it difficult to reproduce accurately? (compared to other consoles)
It's not using the RGB system. Info:
http://nesdev.parodius.com/NESTechFAQ.htm#ispalettergb
http://nesdev.parodius.com/
vSNES | Delphi 10 BPLs
bsnes launcher with recent files list
BootGod
Rookie
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:44 pm

Post by BootGod »

Dmog wrote: What exactly IS the deal with the way NES generate(d) colors that makes it difficult to reproduce accurately? (compared to other consoles)
Like creaothceann said, it does not use RGB, it uses the NTSC color scheme which is called YIQ. The thing I don't quite understand, even though it does not use RGB, wouldn't the NES have to have something on board that stores the palette data in the YIQ format?

Actually I'm starting to wonder whether my disagreements on so many palettes has something to do with what system (PAL/NTSC) authors based them on. I know a lot of the big guys in the NES scene are from PAL regions. I'm in the states, so NTSC is all I know. I'm just guessing, but I would imagine NTSC and PAL colors are a little different.

AspiringSquire, are you from a PAL region?
grinvader
ZSNES Shake Shake Prinny
Posts: 5632
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:15 pm
Location: PAL50, dood !

Post by grinvader »

BootGod wrote:I'm just guessing, but I would imagine NTSC and PAL colors are a little different.
They are *incredibly* different, especially direct broadcast signal.
For a blatant example

Not saying one is better, just showing the difference in colours for both hue and brightness - not possible to make an united ntsc/pal palette, you have to make 2.
皆黙って俺について来い!!

Code: Select all

<jmr> bsnes has the most accurate wiki page but it takes forever to load (or something)
Pantheon: Gideon Zhi | CaitSith2 | Nach | kode54
-_pentium5.1_-
Lurker
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:55 pm
Location: USA

Post by -_pentium5.1_- »

So I take it that AspiringSquire's palette is absolutely final at this point? Perhaps BootGod would like to post his preferred palette?

As for the core issue: We already decided that if we were to continue working on this palette, we would need separate palettes for the composite-cable and RF-modulator cases...and that's just for NTSC. Would it be advisable for a qualified person to get to work looking at the output of a PAL NES?
grinvader wrote:They are *incredibly* different, especially direct broadcast signal.
Well, I'm pretty sure that Nintendo designed the palette for the PAL NES to alleviate the differences between the NTSC and PAL color gamuts, rather than just using a common reference point and letting the differences stand out. Does somebody have both NTSC and PAL TV sets and NES units so we can do a side-by-side comparison?

What this means is that we have to make *some* compromises. Although most NES emulator users play mostly NTSC games, I'm sure there are quite a few "important" PAL NES games out there. To minimize the inconvenience to the emulator user, we should create as few different palettes as possible (although the NTSC vs. PAL distinction is probably unavoidable). I don't mean to sound too pushy, but I would just like to clarify the issues at hand.

Oh, and one last thing: I originally suggested Loopy's palette demo as a hardware test. I just realized that Chris Covell's "RGB Demo" might be a little easier mapper-wise to get working on the hardware. Of course, no one seems to have the proper facilities to do this, but I may as well mention it for reference...
One more thing: http://nesdev.parodius.com/NESTechFAQ.htm#ispalettergb *IS* the document I was talking about. Guess I didn't look closely enough...


In summary, if we want to continue working on our palettes, we ought to:
*Take a closer look at a PAL NES
*Decide how many different palettes we want to create
This signature intentionally contains no text other than this sentence.
Jipcy
Veteran
Posts: 768
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:18 pm
Contact:

Post by Jipcy »

-_pentium5.1_- wrote:Does somebody have both NTSC and PAL TV sets and NES units so we can do a side-by-side comparison?
This accomplishes nothing other than illustrating the differences between TVs. The only way it might help is if you have the exact same model TV for both NTSC and PAL.

What we need is a TV tuner card that can accept both NTSC and PAL signals.

How many different video outputs is the NES capable of? RCA composite video and RF modulated?

Can the Gamecube cable be used on an NES to get S-Video output?

I believe that composite video output is simply more accurate than RF modulated. It is a higher quality video signal all-around, so I don't believe there is a need to do anything with the RF output.

Perhaps there is professional hardware that is actually designed to accurately measure video input signals, so that we might have a chance of reducing differences between TV tuners. I'm not sure where or how we would use this professional hardware.
[url=http://zsnes-docs.sf.net]Official ZSNES Docs[/url] | [url=http://zsnes-docs.sf.net/nsrt]NSRT Guide[/url] | [url=http://endoftransmission.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=394]Using a Wiimote w/ emulators[/url]
adventure_of_link
Locksmith of Hyrule
Posts: 3634
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:49 am
Location: 255.255.255.255
Contact:

Post by adventure_of_link »

bitcopy: I know that the first-edition NES'es had two jacks on a side (Red for audio, yellow for video) and an RF Plug next to the AC input. I'm not sure about second-edition NES'es though.
<Nach> so why don't the two of you get your own room and leave us alone with this stupidity of yours?
NSRT here.
AspiringSquire
Born to Rule... Impatiently
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Everywhere I want to be.
Contact:

Post by AspiringSquire »

-_pentium5.1_- wrote:So I take it that AspiringSquire's palette is absolutely final at this point?
You guessed wrong.
http://rapidshare.de/files/2574161/AS_REAL.zip.html

I have been working on a new version ever since the last release. Taking careful note of criticisms and apparent evidence that some colors were significantly off (thanks BootGod), I finally concluded that BMF's tweaks on his own palettes would not suffice for mine. So I developed my own method to correct his original "bmfpal40.pal" through trial and error (which was _not_ easy).

This time I choose not to copy and paste what I wrote in the Readme; it's quite long and tedious with the specifics of how I constructed this version of my palette. You don't need to know all of that to enjoy the result anyway.
Proton wrote:Your palette is sweet. I drop it in and turn down the overall tint (I prefer a flatter, softer palette to an overly-saturated one) and it just pwns.
Thanks. You're right about "ASQUIRE6.PAL" being overly-saturated. It turns out that my tier-based brightness adjustments were unjustified. You won't see that problem this time. :)

I'm fairly sure that any remaining differences that you may notice between my palette and your TV will be due to tint settings, but I may go ahead and make another version that takes my correction method a little bit further.
[url=http://board.zsnes.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3298][color=brown]My [u]NES palette[/u][/color][/url] - better colors with any emulator.

"the more you know, and the more you can do... the more you are."
- [url=http://www.danielbohman.com][color=brown][u]daniel bohman[/u][/color][/url]
BootGod
Rookie
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:44 pm

Post by BootGod »

-_pentium5.1_- wrote:Perhaps BootGod would like to post his preferred palette?
I will, I'm still fine tuning it though. I'm pretty happy with it atm (it's RF based) but always room for improvement.
-_pentium5.1_- wrote:I originally suggested Loopy's palette demo as a hardware test. I just realized that Chris Covell's "RGB Demo" might be a little easier mapper-wise to get working on the hardware. Of course, no one seems to have the proper facilities to do this, but I may as well mention it for reference...
Well Loopy's is the easiest to work with, and besides, as far as I know, it doesn't need to use MMC1, I have no idea why he set that in the header.

And you may be pleased to know (well I am anyways) I have parts on the way so I can burn that ROM onto a cart for testing ease.


AspiringSquire, your newest palette is an improvement, but it still conflicts with mine. Could you tell me if your from a PAL region and what output on your NES are you using?
AspiringSquire
Born to Rule... Impatiently
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Everywhere I want to be.
Contact:

Post by AspiringSquire »

BootGod wrote:AspiringSquire, your newest palette is an improvement, but it still conflicts with mine. Could you tell me if your from a PAL region and what output on your NES are you using?
Yes, I forgot; sorry. I'm using composite video output with NTSC. I haven't been testing with as many games as I should on the real system; I'll be sure to broaden my scope to increase the effectiveness of my observations towards future updates.
[url=http://board.zsnes.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3298][color=brown]My [u]NES palette[/u][/color][/url] - better colors with any emulator.

"the more you know, and the more you can do... the more you are."
- [url=http://www.danielbohman.com][color=brown][u]daniel bohman[/u][/color][/url]
bztunk
Hazed
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:08 pm
Location: In A.D. 2101, war was beginning.

Post by bztunk »

Well, the only TRUE way is to get yourself an oscilloscope and find out the exact hue, saturation, and brightness for each colour in the NES' palette.
Did anyone try?

And did anyone try to rip the palette of the NES emu on the zelda collector's edition disc?
BootGod
Rookie
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:44 pm

Post by BootGod »

AspiringSquire wrote: Yes, I forgot; sorry. I'm using composite video output with NTSC. I haven't been testing with as many games as I should on the real system; I'll be sure to broaden my scope to increase the effectiveness of my observations towards future updates.
Ok thanks for clearing that up. Composite is likely more accurate, that's what I was originally basing mine on, and the palette fit more uniformly. But I personally think RF looks better, but the palette is a lot 'messier'.

Could you possibly list off some of the games you've been testing (or can test) on an actual NES? I ask because I'm hoping we have some in common, especially one that uses the blue/purple colors that differ so much between palettes.
bztunk wrote:And did anyone try to rip the palette of the NES emu on the zelda collector's edition disc?
I've thought of that in the past. Unfornately I don't have the ability to read GC discs. I'm sure I could find an ISO somewhere if I looked hard enough, but I just have never looked :/ There are other GC games with NES games in them too, like Metroid Prime and Animal Crossing has quite a few.
-_pentium5.1_-
Lurker
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:55 pm
Location: USA

Post by -_pentium5.1_- »

As for GC games with NES games in them: Can anyone confirm the accuracy of those palettes? Does Mega Man 20th Anniversary Collection (GC) use the same NES palette as Rockman Complete Works (PS1 Jp*)? What are the title(s) and system(s) of the Konami collection(s) from which all the "(KC)" ROMs in GoodNES come? Oh BTW, there's an implementation of Wrecking Crew in Wrecking Crew '98, but that palette is useless since it is incomplete and likely inaccurate.

* = Do I have this right? Where did Fx3 rip his palette from anyway?

So far we have palettes for the following cases:
* NTSC, composite output (AspiringSquire Rev. "Real")
* NTSC, RF output (BootGod, unreleased)
It probably won't be practical to work on some of these other cases, but let me post them anyway:
* PAL, composite output - does this exist?
* PAL, RF output
* PAL, SCART output
* PlayChoice 10 (PC10) - is Nintendulator's palette for this accurate?
* Internal screenshot units
This signature intentionally contains no text other than this sentence.
Gil_Hamilton
Buzzkill Gil
Posts: 4294
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:14 pm

Post by Gil_Hamilton »

creaothceann wrote:
Dmog wrote:What exactly IS the deal with the way NES generate(d) colors that makes it difficult to reproduce accurately? (compared to other consoles)
It's not using the RGB system. Info:
http://nesdev.parodius.com/NESTechFAQ.htm#ispalettergb
http://nesdev.parodius.com/
That can't be all of it, as many other pieces of hardware behaved similarly(Atari's 2600, 5200, and 8-bit computer hardware spring to mind) and they don't have these sorts of issues in emulation.
BootGod
Rookie
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:44 pm

Post by BootGod »

Well from what I have read, I guess the palette isn't stored on the system period, rather it's generated by the cpu. That is the basis for palette generators like Kevin Horton's.

A little update on my palette. I'm able to load custom programs now, so I can easily view the entire palette without cycling thru a ton of games. I came to the conclusion that I can't base it off of RF output though. I happened to hook up my other NES (same model) and noticed that there is a huge color difference between the 2 when using RF. Composite was the same on both though so I'm going to have to start over using strictly that. Shouldn't take long, just have to do it :)
AspiringSquire
Born to Rule... Impatiently
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Everywhere I want to be.
Contact:

Post by AspiringSquire »

Witness the evolution of NES color palettes! :D
http://rapidshare.de/files/3030628/ASQREAL.zip.html

You might almost not even recognize it if you compare it to the last one I posted with screenshots; dramatic changes have taken place throughout the entire palette. The screenshots are not truly representative anymore. It is now brighter, more colorful, and closer to the real thing than it ever has been.
This time, the Mushroom Kingdom sky is actually blue! :) You can see the Readme for behind-the-scenes details of development.


--------
Boot, I have the following games which I have seen use the purplish blues: Super Mario Bros., Double Dragon II: The Revenge, Crystalis, and Zelda II: The Adventure of Link. But I think you'll find my latest work to be much more satisfactory in this regard than my previous efforts were before. ;)
[url=http://board.zsnes.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3298][color=brown]My [u]NES palette[/u][/color][/url] - better colors with any emulator.

"the more you know, and the more you can do... the more you are."
- [url=http://www.danielbohman.com][color=brown][u]daniel bohman[/u][/color][/url]
-_pentium5.1_-
Lurker
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:55 pm
Location: USA

Post by -_pentium5.1_- »

AspiringSquire, sorry if I sound too pushy or unappreciative. I would like to repeat that I greatly appreciate your work.

I'm not sure why it's considered useless to do a side-by-side comparison of NTSC and PAL NES units; I perhaps failed to clarify the idea that I have in mind. I would like to test the hypothesis that if Nintendo properly adjusted the palettes for NTSC and PAL separately, the color differences between a NTSC NES and a PAL NES will not be as great as the color differences between NTSC and PAL for other video sources.
This signature intentionally contains no text other than this sentence.
grinvader
ZSNES Shake Shake Prinny
Posts: 5632
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:15 pm
Location: PAL50, dood !

Post by grinvader »

Clearly - the PAL NES does not have the same palette as the NTSC. Comparison between the two is moot and will only waste time.
皆黙って俺について来い!!

Code: Select all

<jmr> bsnes has the most accurate wiki page but it takes forever to load (or something)
Pantheon: Gideon Zhi | CaitSith2 | Nach | kode54
-_pentium5.1_-
Lurker
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:55 pm
Location: USA

Post by -_pentium5.1_- »

Sorry. I thought that maybe Nintendo did a proper "conversion" the way Photoshop converts colors between two RGB spaces, but since there's clear evidence that that's not true, I apologize for not thinking harder.
This signature intentionally contains no text other than this sentence.
-_pentium5.1_-
Lurker
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:55 pm
Location: USA

Post by -_pentium5.1_- »

*Bump*
Did Nintendo make even one iota of an effort to adjust the palettes separately for NTSC and PAL? A lot of people seem to say no...

What is the update plan for AspiringSquire's palette? When might BootGod release his(?) palette?
This signature intentionally contains no text other than this sentence.
AspiringSquire
Born to Rule... Impatiently
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Everywhere I want to be.
Contact:

Post by AspiringSquire »

-_pentium5.1_- wrote:What is the update plan for AspiringSquire's palette?
This: http://rapidshare.de/files/7452582/ASQREALB.zip.html ;)

This one is not really based on the composite video colors at all; it's better... an "ideal" NES palette.

Coming soon:
Free Preview - Try before you buy!
[url=http://board.zsnes.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3298][color=brown]My [u]NES palette[/u][/color][/url] - better colors with any emulator.

"the more you know, and the more you can do... the more you are."
- [url=http://www.danielbohman.com][color=brown][u]daniel bohman[/u][/color][/url]
Agozer
16-bit Corpse | Nyoron~
Posts: 3534
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:14 pm
Location: Nokia Land

Post by Agozer »

btw AspiringSquire, I converted another happy NES emulator user to use your palette. I've never heard so much praise from a single person regarding NES color output in emulators.

[/plug]
whicker: franpa is grammatically correct, and he still gets ripped on?
sweener2001: Grammatically correct this one time? sure. every other time? no. does that give him a right? not really.
Image
kode54
Zealot
Posts: 1140
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 3:31 am
Contact:

Post by kode54 »

Linked rant, in which nobody seems to arrive at the conclusion that accuracy would probably call for both color and scaling in the same step, although it's probably possible to pull off the phosphor alignment effect without doing the scaling at the same time.

So, let's see... and the effect would be alternating every other frame because the actual display is interlaced. That, or your scaling blitter would correctly be stretching the picture only horizontally, and updating every other field from the source picture each frame.

But yeah, there are more fun things to do with your time than getting the display effect perfect. ( Although it does sort of remind me of where pixels or thin lines would shimmer as they scroll across the screen, rather than remaining one constant color. )
Phil
Rookie
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:24 am

Post by Phil »

AspiringSquire wrote: This one is not really based on the composite video colors at all; it's better... an "ideal" NES palette.
Imo, the A version is better. Purple sky in smb1, I don't remember that in original NES.
kode54
Zealot
Posts: 1140
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 3:31 am
Contact:

Post by kode54 »

Maybe the developers were Jimi Hendrix fans, and they changed the hardware to hide that. >_>
-_pentium5.1_-
Lurker
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:55 pm
Location: USA

Post by -_pentium5.1_- »

Okay, I'm checking out that palette really soon... BTW, what does "try before you buy" mean in this context?

I'd better clarify my previous comments about "mixing" palettes: It's just one of my personality quirks that I like to make "witch's brews" out of whatever is practical, whether it's eyeglass cleaning solutions, sauces, or NES palettes ;-) I've never owned any NES hardware, and the last time I saw any in use was many, many years ago, so I don't have any idea what the colors should really look like.
This signature intentionally contains no text other than this sentence.
Post Reply