The irony of the Wii

[funkyass]

if they seemed fuzzy is because nintendo skimped on the LCD.

[Gil_Hamilton]

if they seemed fuzzy is because nintendo skimped on the LCD.

Are we talking in motion?
I was thinking static images.


If it's in-motion, yeah.... LCD persistence issues.
I'm not sure it's Nintendo skimping so much as not being able to fit a faster LCD at the resolution and color depth into their price point.

The entire GameBoy line has been designed to be cheap hardware, and that invariably results in some sacrifices being made.

[FitzRoy]

As neat as it was, the Sega Nomad was a horrible idea that never should've happened. And the Genesis was still alive(barely) when THAT came out.

The Nomad was retarded because of the fact that it used Genesis carts. I'm suggesting miniaturization and IP resale. Also, the Genesis library is incomparable to the SNES one. The Genesis is a highly overrated system that did surprisingly well with a headstart and its marketing campaign (made possible by Nintendo's stance on game violence at the time).

There would also be some obvious additions, like an included co-processor for new games to take advantage of, and likewise tweaking to the original if limits on ROM size needed increasing.

At which point it ceases to be an SNES-compatible.

Eh, not sure how you think so. Seems like it would be very possible to do this without requring any major changes to original SNES game code.

The SPC700 probably could have been contracted out from Sony. In fact, I think they were still doing it on newstyle SNES's even after the SNESCD fell through.

You think Nintendo wanted to go back and start paying their single largest competitor money?

Electronics companies compete but make deals with each other all the time. I'm not sure how big of a divide was created by the dispute, but they're both Japanese companies. If you think of it another way, a portable SNES with a good design and backlight might have done so well that it would have dissuaded Sony from entering the handheld market at all. And that has cost Nintendo far more money than they would have lost on a sound chip contract with Sony. Remember, even though Sony was a competitor in the console market, they weren't competing with Nintendo in handhelds at the time the GBA was released. Though this is speculation, I do honestly believe that the SNES library was so strong that such a device would have strangled the market as much as the original gameboy did.

So.... you're saying they should have made a less-capable system that was 5 times larger so that it would be backwards-compatible with out-of-print software instead of in-production software? Because backwards-compatibility doesn't matter? You're contradicting yourself here.

No, I said earlier in this thread that I am not suggesting BC in terms of being able to use existing SNES carts. I mean miniaturizing the SNES and reselling newly manufactured carts in a GBA-like format. Not only do I think it would have been successul, it would have given us new SNES games that looked and sounded as good as the SNES, building on an already formidable library. Even if something old didn't get re-released, you'd be able to use a flashcart to play it. And we wouldn't have needed to emulate a whole new system. SNES emulators would probably get more help than they do now because it would have extended the life of the system into present day. Honestly, who here wouldn't have wanted that?

[Gil_Hamilton]

No, I said earlier in this thread that I am not suggesting BC in terms of being able to use existing SNES carts. I mean miniaturizing the SNES and reselling newly manufactured carts in a GBA-like format. Not only do I think it would have been successul, it would have given us new SNES games that looked and sounded as good as the SNES, building on an already formidable library. Even if something old didn't get re-released, you'd be able to use a flashcart to play it. And we wouldn't have needed to emulate a whole new system. SNES emulators would probably get more help than they do now because it would have extended the life of the system into present day. Honestly, who here wouldn't have wanted that?

Me. I prefer technology to move forward. If the GBA had been an SNES with a proprietary cart connector, I'd've been pissed beyond belief.
It would be insulting and deranged.

There was at least SOME logic behind a portable SNES that used original carts, though it was fundamentally flawed due to the timeframe.

There is none behind a non-compatible SNES.
The GBA is FAR more powerful and easier to develop for.

Furthermore, as I understand things, it's a relatively simple matter to port SNES games to the GBA hardware, so the proposed easy, cheap pre-existing library is still there.
GBA ALSO has the easy and cheap pre-existing library of 8-bit GameBoy software.



And you're running all over the place and contradicting yourself.
We wouldn't get new SNES games if this thing used different cartridges, and had a non-compatible neoSNES super mode. We'd get.... wait for it... GBA games with better sound.


...


Why am I even debating this? The entire concept is fundamentally stupid.

[Snark]

The Genesis is a highly overrated system

(Not meaning to start a console war, a dead console war at that.) To make a short argument I'd say the faster processor made some action-oriented games better on the Genesis. I think the Genesis was overall, on part with the Snes, at least in North America.

If we're talking JAPAN, than I believe the Super Famicom was definitely superior to the Megadrive in it's games' selection. But outside Japan, there where so many gems not released overseas that they were pretty well matched.

[Nightcrawler]

The GBA is FAR more powerful and easier to develop for.

Yes, but unfortunately you can't do anything worthwhile with it as the end result is a game with lower resolution, and crappy sound as opposed to the less powerful SNES. Ports of the SNES games are proof enough. They can't compare to the SNES originals. Even the GBA originals still fall just short of the mark thanks to graphics and sound shortcomings. And yes, I know the GBA actually has better graphics capabilities, unfortunately, the lower resolution eclipses that. From an end result standpoint, the SNES can still produce subjectively 'better' games that look and sound better in my opinion. Obviously I'm not considering gameplay at all in this conversation as that should be independent of the technical abilities.

Sometimes backwards is really moving forward.

The DS still fails in the resolution department. It's still too low to be a real 3D contender. At least the 2D is looking pretty good there finally even though it still falls short.

[Panzer88]

Low resolution CAN'T make for less-sharp images. It can make for TOO sharp(OH NO! THE JAGGIES HAVE LANDED!), but not fuzzy.

My best guess was ham-handed attempts at anti-aliasing. Those wind up just looking fuzzy.

ok maybe I phrased things, wrong, even on an emulator (I know the accuracy of these is still debateable) it looks the same so it's not the LCD, but there is certainly something missing, at least with a lot of the ports I've seen they just don't carry the same quality as the original versions.

The Genesis is a highly overrated system

how is that a fact? dude, you really need to take a step back, Sega was for a good part of the 80s and 90s one of the biggest arcade and home console companies, they made tons of smash arcade and action hits. I don't know where you're getting this stuff.

The GBA is FAR more powerful and easier to develop for.

Yes, but unfortunately you can't do anything worthwhile with it as the end result is a game with lower resolution, and crappy sound as opposed to the less powerful SNES. Ports of the SNES games are proof enough. They can't compare to the SNES originals. Even the GBA originals still fall just short of the mark thanks to graphics and sound shortcomings. And yes, I know the GBA actually has better graphics capabilities, unfortunately, the lower resolution eclipses that. From an end result standpoint, the SNES can still produce subjectively 'better' games that look and sound better in my opinion. Obviously I'm not considering gameplay at all in this conversation as that should be independent of the technical abilities.

Sometimes backwards is really moving forward.

The DS still fails in the resolution department. It's still too low to be a real 3D contender. At least the 2D is looking pretty good there finally even though it still falls short.

Oh too true, take a look at Sonic Genesis, and the DKC trilogy and weep at the limitations. Even the SNES Final Fantasy ports have issues.

I know some of that can be attributed to bad porting but I've noticed this across the board, there are more colors but lower resolutions, even look at the megaman games and compare.

[ReRuss]

Just my 2 cents...

GBA would have been better with 4 buttons (ABXY) instead of the 2 (AB)

[FitzRoy]

The Genesis is a highly overrated system

how is that a fact? dude, you really need to take a step back, Sega was for a good part of the 80s and 90s one of the biggest arcade and home console companies, they made tons of smash arcade and action hits. I don't know where you're getting this stuff.

First of all, what the hell does that comment have to do with anything other than the Genesis?

Second of all, the Genesis sound chip was pure garbage and the system had less colors, making any cross-platform game almost assuredly superior on the SNES. It had three buttons, requiring you do stupid combos for basic moves in fighting games. Also, the SNES owns the Genesis in almost every genre.

Final Fight > Streets of Rage
King of Dragons > Golden Axe
Super Mario World > Sonic
Mega Man Series / Super Castlevania IV > Gunstar Heroes
Super Mario Kart / RNRR > RNRR
Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 4&6, Zelda, etc, etc, etc > Shining Force
Street Fighter II > Street Fighter II
Space Megaforce / Axelay = Lightening Force

Genesis had a great library of shmups and watered down arcade conversions, sure, but the SNES has an answer for all of them. Its RPG and puzzle library is positively mediocre. That an average game like "Golden Axe" gets so much glorification from its fans should tell you how overrated the system is.

[snkcube]

It had three buttons, requiring you do stupid combos for basic moves in fighting games.

Actually, Sega did release a six button controller, which led to Capcom releasing Street Fighter 2 on the Genesis.

[Joe Camacho]

[
Final Fight > Streets of Rage
King of Dragons > Golden Axe
Super Mario World > Sonic
Mega Man Series / Super Castlevania IV > Gunstar Heroes
Super Mario Kart / RNRR > RNRR
Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 4&6, Zelda, etc, etc, etc > Shining Force
Street Fighter II > Street Fighter II
Space Megaforce / Axelay = Lightening Force

What's the method you used to determine for fact that one game is funner than the other.

Seriously, I want to know.

[FitzRoy]

It had three buttons, requiring you do stupid combos for basic moves in fighting games.

Actually, Sega did release a six button controller, which led to Capcom releasing Street Fighter 2 on the Genesis.

Wow, I don't remember that at all.

What's the method you used to determine for fact that one game is funner than the other.

Seriously, I want to know.

First of all, it's obviously an opinion, unless you feel that every statement which is an opinion should include "IMO" which is idiotic. Secondly, I determined it by playing the games.

[Gil_Hamilton]

It had three buttons, requiring you do stupid combos for basic moves in fighting games.

Actually, Sega did release a six button controller, which led to Capcom releasing Street Fighter 2 on the Genesis.

And let to Street Fighter 2: Super Championship Edition being better on the Genesis than Street Fighter 2 Turbo on the SNES.

Partially because the "6-button" controller had a proper 3/3 layout, and partially because BLAST PROCESSING(AKA a faster and better CPU) let SF2:SCE run faster than SF2T.



And Lunar 2 > *.



Also, Castlevania 4 sucks. As does EVERY Castlevania prior to Rondo of Blood. And Gunstar Heroes isn't even the same GENRE as Castlevania.



Furthermore Axelay sucks. Just because the system has almost no shooters doesn't mean ANY shooter is good. You'd be better served with RType 3.



Additionally, MUSHA is every bit as good as Space Megaforce, if not better. Something about them both being Compile games, and Aleste games on top of it.
MUSHA has the advantage of not being Yet Another Zanac Clone, but Space Megaforce has bigger guns.



In addendum, Sega's Jurassic Park games kicked ass, while Nintendo's first game sucked balls. Their second, while a VAST improvement, never managed to be half as awesome as Sega's.

[FitzRoy]

Additionally, MUSHA is every bit as good as Space Megaforce, if not better. Something about them both being Compile games, and Aleste games on top of it.
MUSHA has the advantage of not being Yet Another Zanac Clone, but Space Megaforce has bigger guns.

Well we almost agreed on something.

[whicker]

[
Final Fight > Streets of Rage
King of Dragons > Golden Axe
Super Mario World > Sonic
Mega Man Series / Super Castlevania IV > Gunstar Heroes
Super Mario Kart / RNRR > RNRR
Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 4&6, Zelda, etc, etc, etc > Shining Force
Street Fighter II > Street Fighter II
Space Megaforce / Axelay = Lightening Force

What's the method you used to determine for fact that one game is funner than the other.

Seriously, I want to know.

Living up to your Devil's Advocate title, I see. :P

[Joe Camacho]

[
Final Fight > Streets of Rage
King of Dragons > Golden Axe
Super Mario World > Sonic
Mega Man Series / Super Castlevania IV > Gunstar Heroes
Super Mario Kart / RNRR > RNRR
Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 4&6, Zelda, etc, etc, etc > Shining Force
Street Fighter II > Street Fighter II
Space Megaforce / Axelay = Lightening Force

What's the method you used to determine for fact that one game is funner than the other.

Seriously, I want to know.

Living up to your Devil's Advocate title, I see.

Hey, who cares if the genesis has "not as pretty" games, compared to the SNES, who cares if it only has 3 buttons, who cares if the sound chip wasn't as good as the SNES, the thing is: The genesis had a bunch of good games you couldn't play nowhere else, the Sonic Series, Gunstar Heroes, Contra Hardcorps, Phantasy Star series, Lunar, Streets of Rage, Target Earth, Vectorman, Splatterhouse series, etc.

And I didn't even owned one, I was a SNES dude.

So you don't like them, or you like the SNES games better, that doesn't make the other overrated. Because in the end, both had awesome games that people swore by them, so the genesis has the merits to be highly rated.

[Gil_Hamilton]

And I didn't even owned one, I was a SNES dude.

I was too. Not wildly irrational, I don't think, but I was pretty sure it was the better system in all respects.

It wasn't until later I started to respect the Genesis and what you could do with a bit more horsepower.

[corronchilejano]

Also, Castlevania 4 sucks.

... NO

[Tallgeese]

[
Final Fight > Streets of Rage
King of Dragons > Golden Axe
Super Mario World > Sonic
Mega Man Series / Super Castlevania IV > Gunstar Heroes
Super Mario Kart / RNRR > RNRR
Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 4&6, Zelda, etc, etc, etc > Shining Force
Street Fighter II > Street Fighter II
Space Megaforce / Axelay = Lightening Force

What's the method you used to determine for fact that one game is funner than the other.

Seriously, I want to know.

...You haven't figured out yet that Fitzroy is one of the most elitist pricks here? Dude, you have to know this by now.

[FitzRoy]

[
Final Fight > Streets of Rage
King of Dragons > Golden Axe
Super Mario World > Sonic
Mega Man Series / Super Castlevania IV > Gunstar Heroes
Super Mario Kart / RNRR > RNRR
Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 4&6, Zelda, etc, etc, etc > Shining Force
Street Fighter II > Street Fighter II
Space Megaforce / Axelay = Lightening Force

What's the method you used to determine for fact that one game is funner than the other.

Seriously, I want to know.

...You haven't figured out yet that Fitzroy is one of the most elitist pricks here? Dude, you have to know this by now.

What was the method you used to determine for a fact that I was a prick?

Nevermind.

[Panzer88]

The Genesis is a highly overrated system

how is that a fact? dude, you really need to take a step back, Sega was for a good part of the 80s and 90s one of the biggest arcade and home console companies, they made tons of smash arcade and action hits. I don't know where you're getting this stuff.

First of all, what the hell does that comment have to do with anything other than the Genesis?

Second of all, the Genesis sound chip was pure garbage and the system had less colors, making any cross-platform game almost assuredly superior on the SNES. It had three buttons, requiring you do stupid combos for basic moves in fighting games. Also, the SNES owns the Genesis in almost every genre.

Final Fight > Streets of Rage
King of Dragons > Golden Axe
Super Mario World > Sonic
Mega Man Series / Super Castlevania IV > Gunstar Heroes
Super Mario Kart / RNRR > RNRR
Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 4&6, Zelda, etc, etc, etc > Shining Force
Street Fighter II > Street Fighter II
Space Megaforce / Axelay = Lightening Force

Genesis had a great library of shmups and watered down arcade conversions, sure, but the SNES has an answer for all of them. Its RPG and puzzle library is positively mediocre. That an average game like "Golden Axe" gets so much glorification from its fans should tell you how overrated the system is.

wow, you just made an ass of yourself. I think it's pretty clear that you don't hold a solid grasp of what games where on genesis.

also hardware specs do not make a system better or worse than another, especially something so marginal, it's the software (which consequently is what this topic ended up being all about, that hardware isn't everything)

Sonic 3 & Knuckles IMO is better looking, has larger levels, and smoother play than SMW, not that I don't like SMW but still...

also, ever heard of a series called Phantasy Star? those were great RPGs, Lunar also.

Also your comment about lousy arcade ports is unfair because genesis had most of the best arcade ports available at the time.

My family has had a 6 button controller for our genesis ever since they were around. Only in the early years were they not available, but you only really NEEDED them for fighting games.

if you would just humor me, read the Genesis section of this page . the guy is clearly biased, but I'd be hard pressed to find someone more knowledgeable about the hardware and the times.

he also wrote this http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/TheSegaGenesis.htm

just read this with an open mind and get back to me.

[creaothceann]

Sonic 3 & Knuckles IMO is better looking, has larger levels, and smoother play than SMW

I wonder why...

if you would just humor me, read the Genesis section of this page. the guy is clearly biased, but I'd be hard pressed to find someone more knowledgeable about the hardware and the times.

His knowledge about the SNES hardware is incrediby incorrect and misleading.

[corronchilejano]

Where's my Alien Soldier on Genesis?

[Gil_Hamilton]

Sonic 3 & Knuckles IMO is better looking, has larger levels, and smoother play than SMW

I wonder why...

if you would just humor me, read the Genesis section of this page. the guy is clearly biased, but I'd be hard pressed to find someone more knowledgeable about the hardware and the times.

His knowledge about the SNES hardware is incrediby incorrect and misleading.

So's his Genesis knowledge.

6-10 background layers my ass. The hardware only supports 2, and no amount of wishful thinking or clever background animations changes that. May as well say the NES supports 4 layers because Metal Storm did it.

[Panzer88]

Sonic 3 & Knuckles IMO is better looking, has larger levels, and smoother play than SMW

I wonder why...

if you would just humor me, read the Genesis section of this page. the guy is clearly biased, but I'd be hard pressed to find someone more knowledgeable about the hardware and the times.

His knowledge about the SNES hardware is incrediby incorrect and misleading.

yeah, like I said, he's EXTREMELY biased, I mostly pay attention to the game titles he references and then draw my own conclusions, such as side by side screenshot comparison etc.

also why do you say "I wonder why..." on the S&K, don't get me wrong, I LOVE SMW, but if we're saying that it looks BETTER, than S&K I'm just not seeing it.

S&K has far less levels (even whith S3 and S&K combined) but the levels have quite a bit of surface area on them. It's not nearly as long as mario but they are both very satisfying I think, and test of skill, and FUN.

So's his Genesis knowledge.

6-10 background layers my ass. The hardware only supports 2, and no amount of wishful thinking or clever background animations changes that. May as well say the NES supports 4 layers because Metal Storm did it.

yeah, he gets it right when listing the specs, but once he gets into the article he does deviate, it could have been phrased much better, but it's not like I haven't heard the same reverse argument, "system X has Game Y that does neat Graphics effect Z therefore system X is better than system W" In this case he's become his own enemy.

anyways, I'm not planting my flag by that guy or anything, heck no, he didn't even get his game lists right, for one he forgot Kirby Dreamland 3 in 1997 for SNES (plus he's only considering US releases to begin with). I'm just saying that the Genesis isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

in conclusion I'd like to point out that everyone is quick to point out the flaws of the Genesis, but God forbid we compare the Master System, or even PC Engine, to the NES.