Noxious Ninja wrote:What if we just want to play the games, not relive our youth?
A better question would be: Why would you want to use an emulator of a console you don't even like or care for? Iow,why would you want to play games that you feel are so lacking (on the native hardware they ran on) that you feel the need to try to make them "better" than they originally were by using all sorts of hacks specifically designed for this effect?
Why try to virtually transform the Snes into something it never were to begin with? If you can't stand the system's original limitations, why would you want to have anything to do with it? No mater how much you try to "improve" the emulated system, it'll never reach the technical standards of modern consoles/PCgames. All this doesn't make much sense imo...
Yes, but if you could very easily remove some of the limitations which the original developers would've removed if possible, why wouldn't you make that an option?
I think of it in terms of upgrading a PC to play high-end games more smoothly. This doesn't offend the developers in any way; they would probably encourage it if you experienced low frame rates. There are minimum system requirements to run PC games, but there is no reason to avoid playing them on better systems just because that "fixes" problems with slowdown. I see nothing wrong with having an option to resolve the limitations of the hardware, especially since it isn't like you're then able to play with invincibility or some other cheat; it is more like playing as the game creators would have had it, as Noxious Ninja stated above.
Now, here's where you're wrong. Consoles are under the control of their designer. Developers are not expected to have to deal with upgrades above and beyond that.
Now, when you've upgraded your system in such a way that breaks things, such as installing a 1.4GHz Tualatin core Celeron motherboard in your XBox, don't complain if XBox Live! stops working. Or, if some screwy game uses rdtsc for timing, and is hardcoded to assume the standard 733MHz processor. But then, who would ever do screwy things like that? (I know the original Unreal engine did, but it measures the clock speed at startup. Naturally, this breaks if your clock speed varies. For example, dropping to below half speed until fully loaded.)
kode54 wrote:Now, here's where you're wrong. Consoles are under the control of their designer. Developers are not expected to have to deal with upgrades above and beyond that.
Since when is accurate emulation a crime?
Hey, I was only defending the positive side of it, and I did emphasize that it would be an *OPTION*. Don't tell me I'm wrong when I'm saying "here's how I think of it." I'm all for accurate emulation, but I also think that it's nice to play with an "enhanced" emulated system, since that seems to be a perk of being able to emulate, anyway. Developers are not expected to deal with upgrades, but I bet some were wishing for them, to play Starfox at a smooth framerate, for example.
[url=http://board.zsnes.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3298][color=brown]My [u]NES palette[/u][/color][/url] - better colors with any emulator.
"the more you know, and the more you can do... the more you are."
- [url=http://www.danielbohman.com][color=brown][u]daniel bohman[/u][/color][/url]
kode54 wrote:Now, here's where you're wrong. Consoles are under the control of their designer. Developers are not expected to have to deal with upgrades above and beyond that.
Since when is accurate emulation a crime?
Hey, I was only defending the positive side of it, and I did emphasize that it would be an *OPTION*. Don't tell me I'm wrong when I'm saying "here's how I think of it." I'm all for accurate emulation, but I also think that it's nice to play with an "enhanced" emulated system, since that seems to be a perk of being able to emulate, anyway. Developers are not expected to deal with upgrades, but I bet some were wishing for them, to play Starfox at a smooth framerate, for example.
Notice that I did not quote you. The quote was directed at specific targets and/or similarities thereof.
kode54 wrote:Now, here's where you're wrong. Consoles are under the control of their designer. Developers are not expected to have to deal with upgrades above and beyond that.
Since when is accurate emulation a crime?
Hey, I was only defending the positive side of it, and I did emphasize that it would be an *OPTION*. Don't tell me I'm wrong when I'm saying "here's how I think of it." I'm all for accurate emulation, but I also think that it's nice to play with an "enhanced" emulated system, since that seems to be a perk of being able to emulate, anyway. Developers are not expected to deal with upgrades, but I bet some were wishing for them, to play Starfox at a smooth framerate, for example.
ZSNES was made to be like the SNES. So I think it should stay that way.
Try out CCleaner and other free software at Piriform
I just playled Star Fox on the 10/24 build, I must say the speed boost was rather nice, made it smoother, though at times it was a tad harder.
I feel that when emulating something it should be just as good or better then it was originally, if you can get rid of little bugs, clear up the visuals or run have it run a little smoother then that's a good thing and there's nothing wrong with it. If emulation can overcome old hardware issules and make the games play a little better I'm all for it.
The speed change in Star Fox is a welcome one, but because how it changes the game it should definaly be able to be turned on and off, but if that can't be done then it should just run at normal speed.
Psygnosis wrote:I just playled Star Fox on the 10/24 build, I must say the speed boost was rather nice, made it smoother, though at times it was a tad harder.
I feel that when emulating something it should be just as good or better then it was originally, if you can get rid of little bugs, clear up the visuals or run have it run a little smoother then that's a good thing and there's nothing wrong with it.
That's your opinion. Depending of the "community" in question (i.e: Zsnes,Mame,MSX,TG16 emulation community etc...)the popularity of that opinion may vary greatly. I'm somewhat familiar with the Mame community and they hold such a position in extremely low regard.
I believe there is something wrong with it (my opinion). I hope Zsnes doesn't take that road. The road of blatant disregard for faithfulness and accuracy, in which the main focus is to "improve" on every game using whatever means necessary. Bastardization to the Max..oh yeah.
Anyway, if that's the road Zsnes choose to take,I hope we will still have other Snes emulators that are true to the emulation spirit.
Neo Kaiser wrote:It is the games that are more important than the console. If someone wants to create SNES plus so be it.
Nach, you're up for it?
Kode54 wrote:Since when is accurate emulation a crime?
Since the kiddies took over.
Kode54 wrote:And why use MK as fuel to the fire when he does not care to come here to chew you out for it?
Eh, you people suck.
IceFox wrote:Speaking of graphics filters, am I the only one on this entire board that does not like them? IMO, they just make it look fake.
Agree. I do use 50% scanlines. More similar to a TV dispay than no filter because of the fact that monitors have much higher resolutions.
And of course, the best thing remains TV-out with no filters.
Stuff like HQ2X,eagle etc aren't trying to recreate the TV look, they just try to make things look "better". While at least, scanlines tries to stay faithful.
Last edited by Dmog on Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
blackmyst wrote:Cleaner....but "fake" is a good description.
Also, there's a difference between filters and features that are slapped on top of the core emulation, and actually changing the virtual SNES itself.
Indeed.
Nach wrote:Sorry, I'm not following.
Hypothetically, "Zsnes ++" would run StarFox and other games with no slowdowns. Would use an advanced algorithm system to actually augment the maximum number of on-screen colors (imagine Snes games using 262144 color at once instead of the standard 256 or so) would replace Kirby with Terra from Final fantasy, would turn Super Mario world into a Doom clone,would automatically give 99999exp points in FF3 without the need of using tedious cheat codes. Would make Samus's jump in Metroid3 follow real life physics (or alternatively would allow Samus to run in the air)...
It would be the Ultimate Snes emulator iow.[/sarcasm]
Oh yeah,and as an Easter Egg,Zsnes ++ would include the awesome game 'Steven Seagal is the Final Option' (Since it's a unreleased beta,I doubt whoever made that game would care if Zsnes++ include it in the distribution)
blackmyst wrote:Also, there's a difference between filters and features that are slapped on top of the core emulation, and actually changing the virtual SNES itself.
Yep, I'd rather have extra features than a lot of "hacked" SNES emulation (which unfortunately SnesGT supposedly has).
Dmog wrote:
Hypothetically, "Zsnes ++" would run StarFox and other games with no slowdowns. Would use an advanced algorithm system to actually augment the maximum number of on-screen colors (imagine Snes games using 262144 color at once instead of the standard 256 or so) would replace Kirby with Terra from Final fantasy, would turn Super Mario world into a Doom clone,would automatically give 99999exp points in FF3 without the need of using tedious cheat codes. Would make Samus's jump in Metroid3 follow real life physics (or alternatively would allow Samus to run in the air)...
Actually, I was thinking we need more realism to make it closely match the original as possible.
How about I make it so that every now and then when you load a game it asks you to shake the dust out?
Also need some random static, and every now and then your 'virtual SNES' gets unplugged and all you see is a black screen with a green 3 in the upper right hand corner.
May 9 2007 - NSRT 3.4, now with lots of hashing and even more accurate information! Go download it.
_____________ Insane Coding
Dmog wrote:
Hypothetically, "Zsnes ++" would run StarFox and other games with no slowdowns. Would use an advanced algorithm system to actually augment the maximum number of on-screen colors (imagine Snes games using 262144 color at once instead of the standard 256 or so) would replace Kirby with Terra from Final fantasy, would turn Super Mario world into a Doom clone,would automatically give 99999exp points in FF3 without the need of using tedious cheat codes. Would make Samus's jump in Metroid3 follow real life physics (or alternatively would allow Samus to run in the air)...
Actually, I was thinking we need more realism to make it closely match the original as possible.
How about I make it so that every now and then when you load a game it asks you to shake the dust out?
Also need some random static, and every now and then your 'virtual SNES' gets unplugged and all you see is a black screen with a green 3 in the upper right hand corner.
I don't think there's a need to simulate a malfunctionning SNES unit. (to anyone: I know Nach is joking/being sarcastic,so don't bother pointing that out)
Though I'd actually prefer a "malfunctionning virtual Snes" over the fictional 'Zsnes+'.
In all seriousness: My idea of the "ideal" emulator could be summed up in four letters: MAME (official windows command-line version) simple, solid,always choose the more accurate way whenever possible..I don't think Mame is being ridiculous or over the top in any way.
Hey Nach, there's a problem with the green "3" thingy: All my TV's show my status (current channel, stereo/mono, time, etc) in light blue
But, I knew whatcha meant though.
<Nach> so why don't the two of you get your own room and leave us alone with this stupidity of yours? NSRT here.
I think the dust feature should be implemented. like you load up metroid 3, and get a black screen, so you reset it, black screen. reset a few more times and it works. and then at the load game menu, you see all three games were erased. we need this kind of accurate hardware emulation.
