PSX vs Saturn for 2D games?

[odditude]

well, my SO is a gamer, so yes, indeed.

[Yuber]

Indeed.
I've even bought the PC versions. Because god DAMN those things were fun.

Other than the VS games, the D&D games were the games I was most looking forward to emulating once CPS2 emulation was finally possible. I'm absolutely terrible at them, but they are some of the best beat-em-ups of all time, and they bring back a lot of great memories of my friends and I playing them at arcades. The sprite art and animation are absolutely fantastic too; I especially love the spell effects.

[Mark57Raider]

Indeed.
I've even bought the PC versions. Because god DAMN those things were fun.

Other than the VS games, the D&D games were the games I was most looking forward to emulating once CPS2 emulation was finally possible. I'm absolutely terrible at them, but they are some of the best beat-em-ups of all time, and they bring back a lot of great memories of my friends and I playing them at arcades. The sprite art and animation are absolutely fantastic too; I especially love the spell effects.

Speaking of D&D. I loved the Final Burn Alpha system of Dungeons and Dragons : SoM. That was an awesome game and I don't claim to be the best at it either. Dungeons and Dragons : ToD was okay as well. I personally prefer the playstation... or what some people call .. gaystation , but I don't think I can really make an educated decision which is better for 2-D games since I haven't played much of the Sega Saturn.

[Yuber]

I don't own a Saturn either, but the Saturn was originally designed to be a 2d beast, while the PSX was designed primarily for polygonal games. When you compare ports of Capcom fighters from that era, the Saturn versions usually had superior sprite animation even without the RAM carts. Look up youtube footage of X-men VS SF & MSH VS SF for the Saturn. They both used the 4 MB RAM cart and they're basically arcade perfect. The PSX versions had no tagging, horrid animation & tons of slowdown.

I prefer the PSX overall too, but the Saturn was a 2d beast. It's a shame that the Saturn VS games(plus many other great games) were never released outside of Japan. The Saturn lasted a lot longer in Japan than it did in the US and UK. Thankfully, CPS2 emulation gives everyone the opportunity to enjoy those badass arcade games. FBA was my first CPS2 emu as well, although I mostly use MAME for CPS2 emulation now. I still use FBA to play CPS3 games though.

EDIT: Agreed; SoM is much better than ToD. It's about time I replay the D&D games. It's been a few years since I've played them so I'll probably die a LOT.

[Mark57Raider]

What's the difference between a CPS1 game, CPS2 game and CPS3 game mind you? The only think I know is that they are capcom games. Playstation will probably still be "one" of my favorite consoles. Sony and Nintendo, but Sega I really was not that much of a fan of. I blame the fact that I was not exposed to it as much as the other console genres either. Then again Gunstar Heroes and Sonic the hedgehog were the only sega games I actually enjoyed.

Playstation had some two-dimensional games which I felt were very good. aka. Castlevania : Symphony of the Night. But I could see where sega saturn had the capacity to make two-dimensional games better on their hardware.

[odditude]

What's the difference between a CPS1 game, CPS2 game and CPS3 game mind you? The only think I know is that they are capcom games.

they're different generations of arcade hardware. CPS1 debuted in 1988 with its last game in 1995, CPS2 in 1993 with its last in 2003, and the short-lived CPS3 in 1996 with its last in 1999. an (extremely rough) analogy in home console terms would be CPS1/Genesis, CPS2/Neo-Geo, CPS3/Saturn.

[Mark57Raider]

Okay, makes a lot more sense now. Seems like the only games I have on FBA are cps2 games like Street Fighter Alpha and Marvel vs Capcom.

[Yuber]

SF3: 3rd Strike is the most popular CPS3 game, just to give you an example of a popular game that uses that particular hardware. The Jojo fighting games are CPS3-based as well.

odditude: As far as your rough comparisons go, it makes me wonder if the Saturn + the 4 MB RAM cart could've run any of the SF3 games competently. I don't know nearly enough about the Saturn's(or CPS3) hardware to make an educated guess, but it's an interesting hypothetical scenario. If 3rd Strike had been released for the SS, how much animation do you think would've been cut? My wild guess is that a LOT of frames would have to have been removed for it to run without lots of slowdown, but who knows? 3rd Strike's character animation is still jaw-droppingly beautiful to this day.

I know they're CPS2 games, but the Marvel VS games seem pretty demanding, but the SS + the 4MB RAM cart ran them beautifully with ZERO slowdown. I'm fairly confident that the SS could've run the Jojo games perfectly(with the RAM cart) but the SF3 games have significantly smoother character animation.

[Gil_Hamilton]

odditude: As far as your rough comparisons go, it makes me wonder if the Saturn + the 4 MB RAM cart could've run any of the SF3 games competently. I don't know nearly enough about the Saturn's(or CPS3) hardware to make an educated guess, but it's an interesting hypothetical scenario. If 3rd Strike had been released for the SS, how much animation do you think would've been cut? My wild guess is that a LOT of frames would have to have been removed for it to run without lots of slowdown, but who knows?

The Saturn, even with expansions, doesn't have enough RAM to keep all the frames. It's not even a case of with slowdown, there's just not space to load them all. Same problem the PlayStation had with CPS2 games.

[Yuber]

So you think a hypothetical SS port of 3rd Strike would've had so many frames cut that it would've looked like, say, the PSX version of X-Men VS SF? Some chars in the VS games had pretty amazing animation, and the SS + the 4 MB RAM cart was able to run those games at full speed with tag. From the videos I've watched, the SS VS games seemed to have ALL the character animation and no slowdown even during double supers.

I know 3rd Strike is on another level as far as animation goes, but you don't think the SS with the RAM cart could've pulled off even a semi-presentable port? I have no idea how hard 3rd Strike pushed the CPS3 HW.

[odditude]

the animation would be butchered to the point it would severely hamper gameplay. 3rd strike with sf2-level animation would be a nightmare.

[Gil_Hamilton]

So you think a hypothetical SS port of 3rd Strike would've had so many frames cut that it would've looked like, say, the PSX version of X-Men VS SF? Some chars in the VS games had pretty amazing animation, and the SS + the 4 MB RAM cart was able to run those games at full speed with tag. From the videos I've watched, the SS VS games seemed to have ALL the character animation and no slowdown even during double supers.

I know 3rd Strike is on another level as far as animation goes, but you don't think the SS with the RAM cart could've pulled off even a semi-presentable port? I have no idea how hard 3rd Strike pushed the CPS3 HW.

It's purely a function of RAM space, and the CPS3 has something like eight times an expanded Saturn's RAM.It's a little ambiguous since the CPS3 used SIMMs and different games required different amounts of RAM installed, but all of them use more RAM than a Saturn can address.

High-framerate sprite animation is not (primarily) CPU-intensive. It's RAM-intensive. If there's not space to store all the sprites, there's not space to store all the sprites, and you can't hit the disk mid-animation to load more. It's the EXACT same reason the Saturn got "arcade-perfect" CPS2 ports and the PS1 didn't. The Saturn(with a RAM cart) had enough RAM to load all the sprites, the PS1 had to pick and choose(and/or use smaller sprites to reduce the per-sprite memory footprint).

[Yuber]

Thanks for the replies. A hypothetical SF3 port for the SS had been on my mind for a while, but I never seriously researched it. I used to read lots of gaming magazines, and I seem to remember there being rumors about a SS port of the original SF3 in ~97 or so, but my memory is foggy as far as that's concerned. If the SS can't handle 3rd Strike's GORGEOUS sprite animation, I'm glad Capcom waited for the DC. I have a burned copy of the DC port of 3S, and minus some pixelation due to the sprites being blown up, it seems pretty much arcade-perfect as far as animation goes.

I have heard some people claim that the DC version doesn't have 100% of the arcade version's animation, but I fail to notice any cuts. I play the arcade ROMs occasionally, and they seem identical animation-wise. IMO, 3rd Strike makes SF4 look like shit from an artistic standpoint. Polygonal graphics can mimic sprite-based animation pretty well sometimes, but 3S's amazing sprite animation & art are superior to SF4's "simulated" sprites.

Although the SS couldn't have done SF3 justice, it had the best CPS2 fighter ports by far. I've only seen videos of the SS VS ports(I prefer MAME), but I don't see any animation frames missing. The PSX versions were absolutely awful; even the shotos suffered from severe animation cuts. SFA3 however was damn impressive considering the PS1's limitations.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Although the SS couldn't have done SF3 justice, it had the best CPS2 fighter ports by far. I've only seen videos of the SS VS ports(I prefer MAME), but I don't see any animation frames missing. The PSX versions were absolutely awful; even the shotos suffered from severe animation cuts.

Yeah. The PS just couldn't do tag-team with large fluid sprites. And Capcom wasn't going to redo the sprites to be smaller, because screenshots.

Marvel VS Capcom got smart and reworked the entire game so it wasn't a tag-team game at all(except in the special case of two players with matching teams, so it only had to load two sprite sets instead of 4). This didn't really endear it to anyone, though it DID keep the frame droppages to tolerable levels(and Megaman ACTUALLY got magnetic shockwave).

[odditude]

This didn't really endear it to anyone

though i still played the fuck out of it

Megaman ACTUALLY got magnetic shockwave

and it was GLORIOUS!

[Gil_Hamilton]

This didn't really endear it to anyone

though i still played the fuck out of it

Make no mistake, I don't mean it as a criticism. It's what they SHOULD have done in the first place.
No, it wasn't the exact same game that existed in the arcades, but... it was a game that could be done well on the hardware they were targeting.

Megaman ACTUALLY got magnetic shockwave

and it was GLORIOUS!

That's still my favorite ending in all of Capcom's fighters. It even beats Chun-Li joining the X-Men.

[grinvader]

obligatory

[Yuber]

Never knew MM got that in the PSX version. By the time MvC was released for the PS1, I already owned the superior DC port :fehplebs: so I didn't pay any attention to the PS release. I have played the PS port though, and it's MUCH better than the 2 previous VS ports. MvC2 was glorious as well, but characters like Cable fucked the balance up BADLY(not like the others were balanced, but Cable was REALLY overpowered). Changing to a 4-button system annoyed me too, but I had tons of fun with it regardless. The DC got so many awesome ports of 2d fighters. They were arcade-perfect other than the sprites being blown up to 640x480.

Because of the backgrounds, music and general atmosphere, I prefer the original 3 Marvel VS games over MvC2 in many ways. How high were the MvC2 devs when they decided to use "jazzy" pop music for MvC2's stages? I've never even played MvC3/UmvC3, so I have no clue if if it was further dumbed down from 2 or if the 6-button system was restored. I'm kinda burnt out on fighters, but I still play CPS1-3 & NG fighters in MAME occasionally.

Is the Saturn's 2d superiority even in question? As far as 3d goes, look up Shenmue Saturn on youtube; it's gorgeous. I'm not sure if that's a legit clip running on a real SS though. If it is, the SS's 3d capabilities were largely untapped. I know this is OT, but the SS intrigues me despite never owning one.

[odditude]

tatsunoko and (u)mvc3 alter it again. instead of lp/hp/lk/hk/a1/a2, it's l/m/h/s/a1/a2. ground s is always a non-cancellable launcher; air s is generally a hard knockdown. i find it to be a significant improvement over mvc2's button arrangement, since some characters have remarkably useful standalone m which was generally unusable in 2. overall, i find umvc3 to be the most enjoyable of the vs games so far.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Is the Saturn's 2d superiority even in question?

The biggest thing is available RAM.
Beyond that, it's debatable, though Saturn's general lack of dithering gives it an edge in my book.

[Yuber]

Thanks odd & Gil for the info. In layman's terms, the SS wins the 2d war by default because its RAM pool can be expanded.

As for UMvC3, I wish there was an option to make it 2-on-2 like the CPS2 VS games with the old 6-button layout. I don't plan on buying UMvC3, but I'd like to try it someday. I don't even have my 360 connected to the internet & I refuse to pay for XBL; it's a ripoff. Paying to play online on MS or Sony consoles is a HUGE ass ripoff imo. I'm kinda skeptical about a 3 attack button layout with a "special" button, but I'd have to play it to make any sort of judgement. I'll watch some clips on YT, namely instruction videos just to get an idea of how the mechanics work. I hope taking a long break from fighters re-invigorates my interest in them.

Off-topic, but is Tekken Tag 2 better than the 1st TTT? I originally bought a PS2 because of TTT. I heard it didn't sell well which really sucks in terms of community, but if I buy a Wii U(because of X), online play is free so I may check TTT2 out. Last Tekken I played was 5.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Thanks odd & Gil for the info. In layman's terms, the SS wins the 2d war by default because its RAM pool can be expanded.

In this case, yes. RAM is just one facet. I don't know about # of sprites or sprite size or palette size offhand. But the Saturn has the RAM advantage even without expansions, and with expansion RAM it has a huge advantage for RAM-hungry tasks.
I get the impression the Saturn has more background layers and a higher max color depth on sprites, but won't swear to it.

Off-topic, but is Tekken Tag 2 better than the 1st TTT? I originally bought a PS2 because of TTT. I heard it didn't sell well which really sucks in terms of community, but if I buy a Wii U(because of X), online play is free so I may check TTT2 out. Last Tekken I played was 5.

What I know of 3T2 is that it has a robogirl with a jetpack and chainsaw arms.
And what more do you need?

[Yuber]

So....a crazy ass female version of Jack? I've only played up to 5 so I don't know anything about the newer chars. Tekken 3 & TTT are still my favorites, and even though Tekken 3 is primitive as fuck by today's standards, it's addictively fun. Wasn't the System 12 arcade hardware just a PSX with a faster CPU & double the RAM? I may be oversimplifying the differences, but I know it's a souped up PSX. The normal PS1 hardware couldn't pull off Tekken 3 with 3d BGs, much less handle a port of TTT.

In MAME, TTT's image quality is significantly worse than Tekken 3's. I'm guessing it's because the arcade HW has to store 4 characters in its RAM in TTT as opposed to only 2 in Tekken 3.

[Gil_Hamilton]

So....a crazy ass female version of Jack?

I honestly don't know. My knowledge begins and ends with the box art.
But chainsaw jetchick is a good way to get me interested.

Wasn't the System 12 arcade hardware just a PSX with a faster CPU & double the RAM? I may be oversimplifying the differences, but I know it's a souped up PSX. The normal PS1 hardware couldn't pull off Tekken 3 with 3d BGs, much less handle a port of TTT.

It looks to be related. Double the VRAM, same amount of main RAM and sound RAM.
Faster CPU(but still an R3000), and a new sound subsystem.
Same graphics chip, which would be it's achille's heel later in it's life.

In MAME, TTT's image quality is significantly worse than Tekken 3's. I'm guessing it's because the arcade HW has to store 4 characters in its RAM in TTT as opposed to only 2 in Tekken 3.

That's a good guess.
Though it's worth noting the System 12 used ROMs instead of optical disks, so it's feasable for them to swap character models and textures into RAM when they tag out, effectively letting them do two characters in one character's worth of RAM space.
It looks like the tag animation is set up so there's a brief period with neither character onscreen, which is where the data swap would occur(and a very good reason for them to have a less dynamic tag system than the Capcom VS fighters do, tangentally).

It looks to me in screenshots like the backgrounds in Tekken Tag are more complex than those in Tekken 3, which is also a possiblity.

[Yuber]

Beats the shit outta me, then. I didn't know about S12 using ROMs VS optical discs, and having to store 4 chars was my best guess. More polys in the BGs is a good theory. I never really noticed the IQ downgrade in arcade because T3 & TTT weren't lined up side-by-side. Also, those high-quality CRTs hide flaws in lower res games much more effectively than 1080p+ monitors. The PS2 port of TTT, at least imo, is one of the most beautiful PS2 games.(US version; JP version had tons of jaggies) The IQ was impeccable for a console game, the character models were very high-poly and the texture effects STILL look really good. Namco was REALLY good at pushing the PS2 to its limits and making their games look beautiful on it.

I looked up Namco's System 246 and 256 HW, but I couldn't find any specifics on 256's specs. I think both 246 and 256 were sometimes modified for specific games. I wanted to compare Sys. 256 to the vanilla PS2 specs. I've never even SEEN Tekken 5 in arcades, so I'm not sure how much better it looks compared to the PS2 port, which was beautiful. I loved T5's bonus ports of Tekken 1-3 also. Tekken 3 was certainly no VF3 graphically, but it had some pretty sweet animation for its time.

EDIT: Sorry for going off-topic. Would the rumored Saturn port of VF3 have even been possible? Seeing Shenmue Saturn(IF that demo was actually running on SS HW) made me think it could've been possible although many cuts still would've had to have been made. VF3tb on the DC disappointed me, because if more time had been put into it, it could've easily been arcade-perfect. Soul Calibur blew it out of the water graphically, even if you factor in VF3' larger BGs.

Would it have been possible to port VF3 to the SS(with RAM expansions) in a presentable form? I'm skeptical, but I'd like someone more hardware literate to tell me if it would've even been possible. Possible as in good looking character models AND 3d BGs. My guess is no, but that Shenmue Saturn clip blew me away.