ROM translation not illegal?

[Johan_H]

Oh, well that made much more sense.

[tcaudilllg2]

No, because you see, copyrights and Author's Rights put simply is a group of rights someone has around intelectual property (It's actually better to call them Author's Rights than copyrights, because copyrights usually refer to copying, while Author's Rights refer to any usage, including copying).

No, it only extends to copyright, according to the law. If you use someone else's creation in a work of your own, then you are copying from their intellectual work, even if it's only in part. That's how the law sees it.

No laws are made as to the control of information. Whatever information you get from a work is something you have created yourself, which you in fact have your own specific copyright on in as much as you would share it. (and even then, you own the expression, not the idea) The holder can control the distribution of the copyrighted form of the information (the work), but your intepretation of it is YOUR work and belongs TO YOU. Anything else is not on the books and is legally irrelevant. No one ever has the right to control the interpretation of a work. Ever.

If reverse engineering a system is not illegal, then neither rom hacking nor translation are illegal so long as the source material is not distributed without the author's consent. Now you might say that the translation itself amounts to a copy of the work in part, except the context under which to interpret the fragments of the work are lost without the entire work, meaning that no actual information is being conveyed in any case, only the potential to express the information. The only purpose of the translation is to interpret the work in another language. Again, the translation is owned by the translator because it is an interpretation. Just the translation though, not the content of the work itself. (actually though if you think about it, is not every impression of a character an interpretation? How does one declare what is the "true" form of a character? I don't think you can.)

In sum, translations are legal, ripping off a creation of another person isn't. (the source material)

[sweener2001]

what was the point of this? nothing new was brought up about this "issue"

[tcaudilllg2]

what was the point of this? nothing new was brought up about this "issue"

I disagree. At the very least we've defined the fundamental issue a bit more clearly, which is, "where does one draw the line between presentation and interpretation?"

[Tallgeese]

...You disagree, but you're painfully wrong.

And far too good at talking a lot yet saying nothing.

[sweener2001]

what was the point of this? nothing new was brought up about this "issue"

I disagree. At the very least we've defined the fundamental issue a bit more clearly, which is, "where does one draw the line between presentation and interpretation?"

that's bull.

after two pages, the best you could come up with was what blackmyst replied with in the second post. because everybody knows that already.

and even if someone didn't, what's the point? did your friends get tired of hearing you speculate for hours over nothing at all? so now we have to hear it?

[Deathlike2]

did your friends get tired of hearing you speculate for hours over nothing at all? so now we have to hear it?

[Nightcrawler]

Regardless of legality of reverse engineering, or distribution, many in the ROM hacking community seem to agree it's 100% illegal, no questions asked thanks to the Berne Convention.

You simply cannot create legal unauthorized translations... So all the other things discussed in this topic don't matter other than making it 'more' illegal than it already is.

While unauthorized fan translations are indisputably illegal (Article 8 of the Berne Convention explicitly reserves the right of translation to the copyright holder and whoever receives permission of them, saying "Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the original works."), it is unusual for copyright holders to object. This is probably largely because the electronic games in question are generally not considered commercially viable in the target language, so the translation is rarely seen as a source of lost revenue.

[tcaudilllg2]

I'd argue that no one has the right to control information whatever the law says. It seems to me feasible that a judge could strike down translation right laws.

Furthermore, let us consider that the Berne convention could not have foreseen the use of computers to perform translations. Back then, a translation implied the production of illegitimate copies. The use of patches, as we have discussed, means that implication no longer holds.

Let's consider for a moment why companies might not want to allow their products to be freely translated. For that matter, let's take into consideration the case of a game that was not originally believed capable of success in foreign markets: Tales of Phantasia.

When ToP was released, finally, it had the weight of the by then well known "Tales" series behind it. It had thus, something that it might not have had back in the '90s: enthusiasm. When companies choose what games to release and what not to, they make their decisions based on what they perceive as the potential enthusiasm for the product. This is completely guesswork, unless there exists a strong intuition that a market exists for the product. It stands to reason that every single game we've seen ported into the West had behind it someone who had an intuition the game would be successful. (either that, or the game in question was of a genre and of such properties that enthusiasm or at least name recognition were assured). We got Final Fantasy because someone at Nintendo took a gamble that U.S. players would like it; same for DQ/DW.

The sticking point with regards a limited, non-publicized re-release of any product is the question of whether or not timing plays a role in reception. Actually this seems to me, on further analysis, a moot point: any introduction, and any positive reception, at all is worth having for any given product. We've seen what Quake did with user mods: it was a huge success. Granting openness to your product is not a way to doom it, but to increase the likelihood of its success. Every single potential ROM translator out there should be welcomed to publisher websites with open arms. There they could register to see the sourcecode (under a NDA) and enter into a community effort to translate the work. Minimal overhead for the company even as the entire potential base of translation enthusiasts is utilized to its fullest extent. Free effort; free labor; fast, universal translation. A win-win situation.

Movies released in the U.S. often make more than half of their money overseas. It's the same for Japanese videogames and companies who don't release games to their entire potential audience range are shooting themselves in the foot financially and limiting their own horizons.

[grinvader]

And far too good at talking a lot yet saying nothing.

Remember what I said about moving air for the sake of moving air ?

[Agozer]

And far too good at talking a lot yet saying nothing.

Remember what I said about moving air for the sake of moving air ?

Every single one of us has to have some purpose in life.

[Deathlike2]

And far too good at talking a lot yet saying nothing.

Remember what I said about moving air for the sake of moving air ?

Every single one of us has to have some purpose in life.

I wouldn't miss this one.

[grinvader]

Every single one of us has to have some purpose in life.

And that guy's purpose is to taste like farts in our mouths !

*FART*FART*FART*FART*FAAAAART*

Heelllo zboarders !

[corronchilejano]

Lawyer talk

Noobtalk

Dude, Mr. Camacho is in Law School.

[Gil_Hamilton]

I'd argue that no one has the right to control information whatever the law says. It seems to me feasible that a judge could strike down translation right laws.

By that logic, a judge would strike down all of copyright.

"You can't shackle knowledge, information is FREE. Don't gotta go to college, to download Windows XP!"
*strums guitar*

-untitled Free Software Foundation folk song

When ToP was released, finally, it had the weight of the by then well known "Tales" series behind it. It had thus, something that it might not have had back in the '90s: enthusiasm.

Which existed well back to the original game.
Nintendo Power did a multipage spread about the SNES one.
And after Tales of Destiny, there was a strong fanbase looking for ToP PS, which Namco politely told to go fuck itself. If I recall, their exact words were that Americans couldn't understand ToP.

We've seen what Quake did with user mods: it was a huge success.

And what, pray tell, was Doom?

Granting openness to your product is not a way to doom it, but to increase the likelihood of its success. Every single potential ROM translator out there should be welcomed to publisher websites with open arms. There they could register to see the sourcecode (under a NDA) and enter into a community effort to translate the work. Minimal overhead for the company even as the entire potential base of translation enthusiasts is utilized to its fullest extent. Free effort; free labor; fast, universal translation. A win-win situation.

Wait... you think it is in the companies' best interests to OPENLY ENDORSE software piracy? At a time when online distribution, especially on the Wii, is giving these same old titles commercial viability again?
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Johan_H]

We've seen what Quake did with user mods: it was a huge success. Granting openness to your product is not a way to doom it, but to increase the likelihood of its success.

Regardless of how successful it was, the openness of id's products has (had, at least) more to do with John Carmack's personal view on software patents than it has to do with maximizing profit, unless I'm misinformed.

What is my point you ask? I don't know.

[neo_bahamut1985]

Gil_Hamilton wrote:
"Wait... you think it is in the companies' best interests to OPENLY ENDORSE software piracy? At a time when online distribution, especially on the Wii, is giving these same old titles commercial viability again?
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Ah, but what about games companies refuse to release on the Virtual Console? Until they do so, I will continue to use translated ROMs[/quote]

[funkyass]

Furthermore, let us consider that the Berne convention could not have foreseen the use of computers to perform translations. Back then, a translation implied the production of illegitimate copies. The use of patches, as we have discussed, means that implication no longer holds.

that only covers distribution.

You still need to have a translation done first before you can make patches, and requires at least one copy to be made.

But thats besides the point. The only thing that makes a translation legal is consent from the original copyright holder.

[tcaudilllg2]

Furthermore, let us consider that the Berne convention could not have foreseen the use of computers to perform translations. Back then, a translation implied the production of illegitimate copies. The use of patches, as we have discussed, means that implication no longer holds.

that only covers distribution.

You still need to have a translation done first before you can make patches, and requires at least one copy to be made.

But thats besides the point. The only thing that makes a translation legal is consent from the original copyright holder.

That's the problem with taking things to their logical conclusion, and with making assumptions which were unstated in the proposal. And no, you do not need to make a copy of a game at all to perform a translation, save in your own computer's memory. Besides, Berne was again, not time-scalable and is obsolete given modern technology.

I'm actually thinking I'm going to publish a lot of what I've wrote here on RPGamer. What do you think?

[Gil_Hamilton]

"I'm actually thinking I'm going to publish a lot of what I've wrote here on RPGamer. What do you think?"

That spamming two boards with worthless drivel that was discussed to death back in the nineties is worse than spamming one board with worthless drivel that was discussed to death back in the nineties?

You're the only person that thinks any of this is new or insightful.

Gil_Hamilton wrote:
"Wait... you think it is in the companies' best interests to OPENLY ENDORSE software piracy? At a time when online distribution, especially on the Wii, is giving these same old titles commercial viability again?
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Ah, but what about games companies refuse to release on the Virtual Console? Until they do so, I will continue to use translated ROMs

I wasn't saying drop your emulation habit. If I was, I wouldn't be here.

Just that saying companies need to encourage piracy of their older software when their older software is becoming commercially viable again is probably NOT a sound business plan.

[declan]

I'm actually thinking I'm going to publish a lot of what I've wrote here on RPGamer. What do you think?

Sure.... i don't mind if you get burninated from both forums.




EDIT:
Just kidding. I won't burninate you because i can't

[tcaudilllg2]

Who said anything about a forum? They've got an editorial page which I've contributed to before.

As for those who are arguing about things "becoming popular again", you're only demonstrating your insecurity and ignorance of the nature of popularity, thinking it has some kind of "magical" quality which it really doesn't.

But are old games really becoming popular again? Doubtful. At least, not enough to compete with newer games. (unless you're talking say, 50,000 sales copies or such) The bottom line is we're probably not going to see any of the as-yet untranslated SNES RPGs released (and there are 30 or more still yet...) released. Bottom line is the game gap is widening, not closing with literally hundreds of Saturn, PSX, GBA, and NDS games not released nor are there any plans to. Add to that the existence of the gaming media which uses its position of influence to lift up or drown stock RPG titles. The facts do not support a resurgence in the popularity of old games in general. (just because Zelda thrived on GBA, with its enormous cultural legacy, means next to nothing for obscure titles which never made it overseas).

[tcaudilllg2]

Every single one of us has to have some purpose in life.

And that guy's purpose is to taste like farts in our mouths !

*FART*FART*FART*FART*FAAAAART*

Heelllo zboarders !

That's insulting. But I guess you're hardly the creative fire behind ZSNES. so you probably wouldn't understand anyway.

[Johan_H]

You still need to have a translation done first before you can make patches, and requires at least one copy to be made.

And no, you do not need to make a copy of a game at all to perform a translation, save in your own computer's memory.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Who said anything about a forum? They've got an editorial page which I've contributed to before.

As for those who are arguing about things "becoming popular again", you're only demonstrating your insecurity and ignorance of the nature of popularity, thinking it has some kind of "magical" quality which it really doesn't.

But are old games really becoming popular again? Doubtful. At least, not enough to compete with newer games. (unless you're talking say, 50,000 sales copies or such) The bottom line is we're probably not going to see any of the as-yet untranslated SNES RPGs released (and there are 30 or more still yet...) released. Bottom line is the game gap is widening, not closing with literally hundreds of Saturn, PSX, GBA, and NDS games not released nor are there any plans to. Add to that the existence of the gaming media which uses its position of influence to lift up or drown stock RPG titles. The facts do not support a resurgence in the popularity of old games in general. (just because Zelda thrived on GBA, with its enormous cultural legacy, means next to nothing for obscure titles which never made it overseas).

I said commercially viable, you nincompoop.

The fact is, actively promoting fan translations of old games is a clear approval of piracy, at a time when the back catalog is becoming sellable again and piracy of old software is counter to the company's interests.