So, SFIV is going to have 3D graphics.

[Johan_H]

Yes, it's a shame on all the pretty hand-pixeled sprites and backgrounds this game could have had.

[sweener2001]

and was there as big a fuss when metroid went 3D? it seems that metroid as a franchise is up there with street fighter.

I think I've already had this duscussion. It's not a very good comparison. With Prime, the change to 3D was completely justified by gameplay differences. On top of that, we still got 2D incarnations in the form of Fusion and Zero Mission. Not so with SF.

It doesn't matter if the game is is "good hands" or not, the simple fact that they chose to abandon handdrawn animation inherently means that it loses something. Look at the pictures of Chun Li. Look at the victory pose with the V sign. It looks dead. But that's just the still images, in motion the characters look floaty, robotic, motorized. Like window mannequins come alive. You've all seen the videos. It looks retarded.

i have seen the alpha stage videos, yes.

i couldn't remember about metroid, it's been awhile.

i think i'm going to hold out on a final opinion until they get to showing something a bit closer to a final version. but like i said, i wasn't that hardcore into SF, but if it really does play a lot like II and invoke those memories, then i won't care as much what it looks like, per se.

i almost want to just say that all this talking about the loss of 2D and what a tragedy it is -- is basically being a graphic whore. i'm not actually stating that as my opinion, but this doesn't seem to differ much from people who don't play games because they're not "pretty" enough. just a thought with nothing to back it up, so i won't defend it, it's a just a thought that popped into my head. and even if i could defend it, i'm not using the term "graphic whore" in a very loose sense here.

i'm also kind of tired and type-rambling.

[Gil_Hamilton]

and was there as big a fuss when metroid went 3D? it seems that metroid as a franchise is up there with street fighter.

I think I've already had this duscussion. It's not a very good comparison. With Prime, the change to 3D was completely justified by gameplay differences. On top of that, we still got 2D incarnations in the form of Fusion and Zero Mission. Not so with SF.

Yeah, Fusion was a GREAT continuation of the series.


And what was Street Fighter 2 HD, if not a new sprite-y SF?

[Johan_H]

And what was Street Fighter 2 HD, if not a new sprite-y SF?

The artists of that paint-over HD remake have no idea what they're doing, you can't even begin to compare that to the hand-pixeled SFA/SF3 sprites.

[MisterJones]

And what was Street Fighter 2 HD, if not a new sprite-y SF?

You have no idea the countless criticisms exist for that game, from many sprites being just a bunch of existing art slapped togheter, to severe anatomical flaws.

And yeah, sfa/sf3 (and the other cps3 games as well) sprites are far superior in quality. CvS was pretty good on that field too.

[Gil_Hamilton]

And what was Street Fighter 2 HD, if not a new sprite-y SF?

You have no idea the countless criticisms exist for that game, from many sprites being just a bunch of existing art slapped togheter, to severe anatomical flaws.

And yeah, sfa/sf3 (and the other cps3 games as well) sprites are far superior in quality. CvS was pretty good on that field too.

So.... they actually DID do another sprite game, and it sucks because it's half-assed it and shitty? And people want them to REPEAT THIS for SF4?

[Neo Kaiser]

I don't like how this game could remove SFIII from the time line as it had interesting characters.

[blackmyst]

i have seen the alpha stage videos, yes.

Let's be realistic... the general presentation and animation is unlikely to change much.

i couldn't remember about metroid, it's been awhile.

Surely you can remember in what ways the Prime games are different from vanilla Metroid?

i think i'm going to hold out on a final opinion until they get to showing something a bit closer to a final version. but like i said, i wasn't that hardcore into SF, but if it really does play a lot like II and invoke those memories, then i won't care as much what it looks like, per se.

Yeah, I think you're right in that they're kind of trying to do the "OMG IT'S SFII IN 3D" thing. The game seems to exist for the sake of that, almost.

i almost want to just say that all this talking about the loss of 2D and what a tragedy it is -- is basically being a graphic whore. i'm not actually stating that as my opinion, but this doesn't seem to differ much from people who don't play games because they're not "pretty" enough. just a thought with nothing to back it up, so i won't defend it, it's a just a thought that popped into my head. and even if i could defend it, i'm not using the term "graphic whore" in a very loose sense here.

I like to differentiate myself from "graphics whores" in that I couldn't give two shits about the screen resolution and such. But regardless, I disagree with your angle on it.

It's as if there's a city with countless Italian restaurants EVERYWHERE, and only one Chinese restaurant. And they're going to turn this last Chinese one into an Italian as well, because they just HAVE to have one MORE Italian restaurant. People who like Chinese food are gonna be understandably fucking pissed, even if they like Italian food as well.

And no, of course I'll still play it. I'm not Tim Buckley.

Yeah, Fusion was a GREAT continuation of the series.

Hey, Fusion was great. :( Too linear, sure, but nowhere near the gigantic disappointment that Corruption was. And please don't disregard Zero Mission.

This wasn't the main point I made about Metroid, though.

So.... they actually DID do another sprite game, and it sucks because it's half-assed it and shitty? And people want them to REPEAT THIS for SF4?

I think you're confused as to who "they" are.

Not to mention this game was going to look horrific no matter who did it, because of the very thing that they're trying to do (overlaying high resolution graphics on ancient animation - but I guess since resolution is the only thing some people look at, they might be successful).

[MisterJones]

And what was Street Fighter 2 HD, if not a new sprite-y SF?

You have no idea the countless criticisms exist for that game, from many sprites being just a bunch of existing art slapped togheter, to severe anatomical flaws.

And yeah, sfa/sf3 (and the other cps3 games as well) sprites are far superior in quality. CvS was pretty good on that field too.

So.... they actually DID do another sprite game, and it sucks because it's half-assed it and shitty? And people want them to REPEAT THIS for SF4?

It was actually Capcom of America hiring a third party team (read, fucking Udon) to do the graphical task.

[Johan_H]

So.... they actually DID do another sprite game, and it sucks because it's half-assed it and shitty? And people want them to REPEAT THIS for SF4?

It was actually Capcom of America hiring a third party team (read, fucking Udon) to do the graphical task.

Precisely, but regardless, there is no logic in Gil's post there. Why would people want more of what was bad?

Not to mention this game was going to look horrific no matter who did it

True, but they could have at least hired people who know how to draw decently.

[Tallgeese]

i almost want to just say that all this talking about the loss of 2D and what a tragedy it is -- is basically being a graphic whore. i'm not actually stating that as my opinion, but this doesn't seem to differ much from people who don't play games because they're not "pretty" enough. just a thought with nothing to back it up, so i won't defend it, it's a just a thought that popped into my head. and even if i could defend it, i'm not using the term "graphic whore" in a very loose sense here.

This thread should have been totally over when this was stated, but noooo, stubborn graphics whores had to continue.

[Snark]

i almost want to just say that all this talking about the loss of 2D and what a tragedy it is -- is basically being a graphic whore. i'm not actually stating that as my opinion, but this doesn't seem to differ much from people who don't play games because they're not "pretty" enough. just a thought with nothing to back it up, so i won't defend it, it's a just a thought that popped into my head. and even if i could defend it, i'm not using the term "graphic whore" in a very loose sense here.

This thread should have been totally over when this was stated, but noooo, stubborn graphics whores had to continue.

Posting in a thread to say it should not continue...Love the me-too posts.

And I disagree it's entirely, or basically about graphics. 2D sprites versus "2.5D" (3D models with linear 2D gameplay) can have an impact on actual gameplay. The hits box/hit detection engine can significantly differ.

Street Fighter EX (regardless of the way it looks) differ to a much greater extend from all the other Street Fighters from a gameplay perspective, despite being essentially a 2D fighter...SF4 might be no exceptions.

[Gil_Hamilton]

So.... they actually DID do another sprite game, and it sucks because it's half-assed it and shitty? And people want them to REPEAT THIS for SF4?

It was actually Capcom of America hiring a third party team (read, fucking Udon) to do the graphical task.

Precisely, but regardless, there is no logic in Gil's post there. Why would people want more of what was bad?

My POINT was that Capcom DID attempt a HD sprite version, developed alongside the 3D game.
It stands to reason that if they fucked it up with SF2HD, they'd probably fuck up a hypothetical sprite SF4, given it was developed concurrently.

And I disagree it's entirely, or basically about graphics. 2D sprites versus "2.5D" (3D models with linear 2D gameplay) can have an impact on actual gameplay. The hits box/hit detection engine can significantly differ.

Street Fighter EX (regardless of the way it looks) differ to a much greater extend from all the other Street Fighters from a gameplay perspective, despite being essentially a 2D fighter...SF4 might be no exceptions.

The hit detection can differ wildly between two installments of a sprite series, too.

As I said earlier, there's no technical reason for hit detection to be any more or less wonky with polys than sprites. If it's good enough for shooters, it's good enough for fighters.

Only argument I can really see is that the flashier attacks may have less visually clear boundaries. But it hasn't seemed to hurt the NAOMI games.
The Capcom VS SNK games had less clear boundaries for fireballs and such due to the flashier graphics, but people seemed to cope.

[blackmyst]

This thread should have been totally over when this was stated, but noooo, stubborn graphics whores had to continue.

Hey, blah to you buddy, I own a Wii as my only new console.

And are you basically admitting that a game that's nearly ten years old looks better than SF4?

Besides, read my restaurant analogy. I'm just sick of hearing "3D IS BETTER CUZ 3D" for years.

My POINT was that Capcom DID attempt a HD sprite version, developed alongside the 3D game.
It stands to reason that if they fucked it up with SF2HD, they'd probably fuck up a hypothetical sprite SF4, given it was developed concurrently.

It does not stand to reason at all. Have you read anything I wrote? 1. It's not Capcom doing it and 2. the very nature of this particular project prevents it from looking its best. A new original game done by Capcom's own animators wouldn't be hampered by these things.

[MisterJones]

I think Gil missed the most relevant point of my post, whcih is why I'll highlight it:

It was actually Capcom of America hiring a third party team (read, fucking Udon) to do the graphical task.

To clarify, CoA operates differently from CoJ (as in, what the fuck is wrong with their "art teams"?!). You just have to take a look of their nineties cabinet/cart artwork.

[Tallgeese]

MisterJones: That is a retarded argument. Past performance, especially OVER A FUCKING DECADE AGO ON BOX ART, has jack shit to do with curret performance. Hell, I remember when CoA attempted to redub and retranslate Megaman X Collection and Inafune stopped them AFTER THEY HAD ALREADY DONE IT, and I'm pretty sure that Inafune is part of CoJ. Seems to me that CoJ participates in its own share of twattery and are not angels who shit gold (I'm thanking God that you didn't ooze praise for glorious Nippon in that post). Hell, as an example, Onimusha has few facial expressions, yet has boob jiggle. Talk about priorities. Gil's comment is probably the only one that's participating in the latest round of this festival of mental failure that seems to have something resembling gray matter backing it up.

Blackmyst: Kindly do not put words in my mouth or even imply I was trying to 'admit' what you said. Considering that I was quoting sweener there, it should have been elementary to realize I was mocking you (because despite him not wanting to say it, that opinion may as well be put into the shrine of fact from the whining going on here), but apparently you are too full of '2D > 3D' counter-culture angst to realize that. The third line of that tripe you dared assault my eyes with in reply to me shows that much.

I'm not going to justify Snark's bullshit with a response, Gil handled it already.

You're all bitching about graphics preferences. End of story. Get over yourselves.

[Snark]

MisterJones: That is a retarded argument. Past performance, especially OVER A FUCKING DECADE AGO ON BOX ART, has jack shit to do with curret performance. Hell, I remember when CoA attempted to redub and retranslate Megaman X Collection and Inafune stopped them AFTER THEY HAD ALREADY DONE IT, and I'm pretty sure that Inafune is part of CoJ. Seems to me that CoJ participates in its own share of twattery and are not angels who shit gold (I'm thanking God that you didn't ooze praise for glorious Nippon in that post). Hell, as an example, Onimusha has few facial expressions, yet has boob jiggle. Talk about priorities. Gil's comment is probably the only one that's participating in the latest round of this festival of mental failure that seems to have something resembling gray matter backing it up.

Blackmyst: Kindly do not put words in my mouth or even imply I was trying to 'admit' what you said. Considering that I was quoting sweener there, it should have been elementary to realize I was mocking you (because despite him not wanting to say it, that opinion may as well be put into the shrine of fact from the whining going on here), but apparently you are too full of '2D > 3D' counter-culture angst to realize that. The third line of that tripe you dared assault my eyes with in reply to me shows that much.

I'm not going to justify Snark's bullshit with a response, Gil handled it already.

You're all bitching about graphics preferences. End of story.

I know you can't lower yourself to respond (aside from the "tell X I said Y type non-response) but from where I'm standing you seem to be the one doing the most bitching, dude...

Gil didn't "handled" my arguments either. Other than speculation, there was no proof given 2.5D games will have absolutely no impact on game;s mechanics.
And follow your advice and don't put words in my mouth. I was debating gameplay and gameplay only, not graphics.

The third line of that tripe you dared assault my eyes with in reply to me shows that much.

Get over yourselves

You heard the guy blackmyst. (Big irony alert)

[casualsax3]

Slew of new screen goodness.
http://news.filefront.com/new-street-fi ... er-before/

[blackmyst]

Blackmyst: Kindly do not put words in my mouth or even imply I was trying to 'admit' what you said. Considering that I was quoting sweener there, it should have been elementary to realize I was mocking you (because despite him not wanting to say it, that opinion may as well be put into the shrine of fact from the whining going on here), but apparently you are too full of '2D > 3D' counter-culture angst to realize that. The third line of that tripe you dared assault my eyes with in reply to me shows that much.

Hahaha what? Alright, time out for a moment. You're obviously not going to respond to any valid points made or anything, so... completely serious question: how old are you? And do you actually talk to people that way in real life?

[Panzer88]

here are the facts

SF2 HD made by not SF people

SF4 made by current SF developer

neither is made by all the old people who made the old games you love

both of them, or simply either of them could have awesome gameplay and visuals, or crappy gameplay and visuals

or a mix

they could rock or suck

there is hardly anything to base any of this on yet though.

this is all assumption and speculation, which is what arguments on the web seem to be based on.

[Johan_H]

Another fact

SF2 HD made by really bad artists.

[Panzer88]

ha ha, while something subjective like that cannot be fact, I'm sure popular opinion would tend to follow that thought.

you could say -

the art in SF2 HD could be (considered) bad

or

I think the art in SF2 HD is bad

[MisterJones]

I'm willing to bet Metatron's on a bad mood or something, so i am willing to wait before giving a heated response on my own.

Needless to say, i was addressing art direction, not anything else (I am aware that CoJ has its fair share of bullshit but, again, just not on the art department)

Also, I have nothing against the new 3d look of SF4. I just don't like the fact that in style and roster it is too similar to SF2. Characters refuse to change as well.

ha ha, while something subjective like that cannot be fact, I'm sure popular opinion would tend to follow that thought.

you could say -

the art in SF2 HD could be (considered) bad

or

I think the art in SF2 HD is bad

Well, you can say an artwork is bad when you are drawing a supposedly believable human with unexistant muscle mass "layout" and on poses that would probably break your backs. I forgive a *few* particular artists because they did it deliberatedly for visual trickery aloof.

[Johan_H]

ha ha, while something subjective like that cannot be fact, I'm sure popular opinion would tend to follow that thought. :)

you could say -

the art in SF2 HD could be (considered) bad

or

I think the art in SF2 HD is bad

True, true, true.
But
In this case, not even the artists themselves think they're good, or else they wouldn't have to trace other people's artwork (No, not the sprites). And fact is, they don't know how to draw a human without making up the anatomy as they go along, no matter what anyone says about their work.

"Pit Fighter is a bad SNES game" is subjective too. :P

And Metatron is constantly in a bad mood :P

[Gil_Hamilton]

Gil didn't "handled" my arguments either. Other than speculation, there was no proof given 2.5D games will have absolutely no impact on game;s mechanics.

No shit. Because the game mechanics vary EVEN WITHIN THE 2D GAMES.

Just look at the Alpha series. Tell me that played similar to SF2. I dare you.
Hell, game mechanics changed from Street Fighter 2 variant to Street Fighter 2 variant.



Any gameplay issues will not be due to the believed inherent flakiness of polygonal collision detection.
In point of fact, there's nothing stopping Capcom from running 2D hit patterns on top of the polygon models, so all gameplay is still handled by sprite equivalents. It'd certainly simplify the hit detection code.