ZSNES rerecordable feature: More trouble than it's worth?

[Magus`]

As someone pointed out earlier, if you don't like the feature, then don't use versions of the emulator with it. The current WIP is coded well enough that any game I can think of will have no issues with a speed run.

There are ways to solve your problem instead of arguing how an upcoming feature is evil or something to that degree just because you are too lazy to find a way around it.

In my opinion, true hard core gamers wouldn't even worry about this, and hell, might even think it's cool because they can prove how bad-ass they are by beating someone who uses the feature without using it. But then again, maybe you just really lacked the skills in the first place, anyhow.

In any case, stop whining you 12-year-old pubeless pansies.

[Kagerato]

Kagerato, I find that post a bit overkill... Not due to length, but because it appears to me that you took Reciprocal way too literally and out of context to the point of almost going on a tangent. At least, in point 1 anyway.

I disagree with the guy, but I don't think that was at all warranted.

Taking his post "out of context" was entirely intentional, at any point where I did so. You can only expose the foolishness of an assertion if you remove it from the limited scenario in which it was presented and put it into the real world, where there is reason and light.

I have no problem with people expressing their opinions. When they make several nearly page long posts about preventing the expansion of freedom for other individuals and conserving the status quo, though, I'm obligated to respond in a much simpler way: by tearing the core of their argument apart piece by piece.

Notice that I don't respond to opinions with opinions alone. That leads to garbage, massive posts like the ones that started the thread. I respond with facts and analysis.

I only once personally attacked one of the posters, and that was to better illustrate a very simple point. I cannot possibly understand how even that was unwarranted.

[Nach]

Being that I am a developer, pro game player, and enjoy watching good movies, maybe my opinion on this matter will carry some weight.

Since ZSNES first got movie recording a good 5 years back, I've made quite a few movies of myself doing some spectacular things. Now as I watch a bunch of these videos of mine, a question creepes into my mind, how by watching the video can you tell if a cheat code was in use or not during the movie? Since the ZMV contains a state of the system, the system could be put into a "cheated" state and a movie can be made.

Other emulators also have movie support which I enjoy, like Visual Boy Advance. Here's a cool movie I made a while back with that is saved as AVI: http://nsrt.edgeemu.com/st2.avi
Despite seeing that, and knowing it's possible to play like that, you could wonder if I edited the video, I assure you that I didn't and that I could do the exact same feat on a real Game Boy.

A while back this whole Time Attack craze started on the NES and many cool videos have been made and are still being made. I find these videos highly enjoyable as they show extremely well game play that may be impossible with our slow human reactions and our tendencies not to be perfect.

Now notice how a programmer like Blip has added rerecording support to Snes9x, FCEUltra and FinalBurnAlpha in almost no time at all. If Blip wanted, he could add support to an emulator without ever telling anyone and go ahead and submit many amazing movies that would play fine in your non rerecording version, and you'd be none the wiser.

From all this it basically boils down to that if you don't actually see with your own eyes the person playing like that, you can't be 100% sure that a person really played like that.
This leads to a concept of trust. You trust the fact that the ZMV presented to you was not created with a private version of ZSNES which supports many features you don't have at your disposal. You trust that no one played with slow motion on. You trust that RAM wasn't hacked prior to the movie being recorded. You trust that a human and not some sophisticated AI played the game in ZSNES.

With so many possibilities for the truth being compromised, allowing the masses who can't figure out how to do it otherwise is not going to affect things much.
Now go watch something like Genisto's SMB2, SM3 or Castevania run, watch Bisqwit's Megaman (Rockman) run, or Exim's Blue Shadow run. Regardless of how they were made, I find them really enjoyable. Not having rerecording would not allow masterpieces like those to be made.

Your dillema of accepting movies will have to be based on trust, if the user says he used rerecording, throw it in the rerecording catagory of movies, if he says he didn't put it in the other pile. Cater to both groups on your site, as each requires different skills (pure video game skill versus patience and the like). Doing so, I don't think you'd have people trying to go ahead and trick you.

The true feat of skill should be best appreciated by yourself, not what other people have to say about your feat. Despite the fact that I have hundreds of ZMVs, I don't feel people having rerecorded ZMVs detract from my skill and mastery over the games I played in anyway whatsoever.

If you would like to propose a method which will allow us to tell the two types of movies appart, and will deter one type of movie being easily hacked to appear as the other type, I'm willing to go ahead and implement it.

[snkcube]

I see no point in this thread, but nice write up Nach.

[Ichinisan]

Nach saves the day

[Xin]

You know, there was a suggestion on the old board that when the re-recording is implemented, you could put some counter of how many re-records there are in the ZMV file, and someone else I know of suggested that on the side it could be made that the files are locked out if someone tries to remove such (since they've started manual hex editing). I personally agree with these ideas, anyone else have any thoughts about them?

[parasyte]

You know, there was a suggestion on the old board that when the re-recording is implemented, you could put some counter of how many re-records there are in the ZMV file, and someone else I know of suggested that on the side it could be made that the files are locked out if someone tries to remove such (since they've started manual hex editing). I personally agree with these ideas, anyone else have any thoughts about them?

All you'd have to do is look at the source to see what trips the lock out. What parts are checksummed and with what algorithm. Then you could make your own program to fix it.

"The problem is really only solvable by relying on the community to police
itself, because it is a fundamentally unwinnable technical battle to make a
completely cheat proof game of this type. Play with your friends."

[Zallus]

Hoping against hope that having just registered to post this doesn't make my post look illegitimate, I put forth a simple thought. No great creator is, at first, very concerned with the ethical implications of their work. I do not think that Oppenheimer would have been able to be goaded into preemptive retirement by his peers, had they known the consequence of devestation his designs' continuations would bring. That said, programmers enjoy creation. Seen from a purely technical perspective, implementation of a rerecording feature would be nothing but a quick way to spend an hour or two, and therefore would not even be a pivotal point in one's mind.
Also, given that ZSNES is an open source effort, anyone who wished could implement an equal design on their own, and it would never be known to exist, except perhaps for all the great feats of legerdemain performed by that individual that would result.
Perhaps it would be best for competitive gaming to have a sort of arena; a version of ZSNES that was closed source, had all means of cheating stripped out, and produced an incompatible closed-format video file. This version would be produced and maintained by some group that the competitive-gaming community would trust, and said video files would be the mark of the true athlete in such a domain.

...but all that's just rambling. Take it will a grain of X-Lax, and call me in the morning.

[Nach]

Having a closed sourced version of ZSNES which produced signed movies would work.

The problem is though having a closed sourced version of ZSNES.

[parasyte]

Having a closed sourced version of ZSNES which produced signed movies would work.

The problem is though having a closed sourced version of ZSNES.

One thing a speedrunners organization could do would be to make a modification to zsnes that didn't have cheating features (or marked them in the zmv), and was unique for the person it was given to. Maybe charge them $5 to register and to make their version. Give the source to them, too, as required by the GPL, but tell them that if their version of zsnes gets out (source or binary) or modified zmvs appear, they and all their movies would be disqualified from said organization.

The GPL only obligates you to give the source to the person you give binaries to; it does not obligate you to distribute a program widely for free (If you only make a modification for yourself you are not obligated to give the source code to anyone else or even make any of that public).

[PFUNK]

I think this topic is probably done, but for those who said that Bisqwit's site is made to "show up" elitist gamers, read what Bisqwit wrote. It describes perfectly my stance on the situation.

http://bisqwit.iki.fi/jutut/nesvideos/WhyAndHow.html

[Malcster]

I would like to thank Myster DAHN for "IS THERE NO FUCKING JUSTICE ON THE INTERNET?!?!?" which I will be laughing at forever.

Seriously, the people here who think that a single feature is completely evil and has no redeeming features all need to take a chill pill. It's a tool that can be used possibly for a bad purpose, just like a knife, a bomb, a razor blade, or a pen. Just because I can stab someone with a razor blade doesn't mean no one should be able to buy them, because they have significant non damaging use.

And the guy who made comparisons to a rape machine needs to take several chill pills until they overdose.

[michael flatley]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you can't tell if a speed run/trick is cheated then you don't belong in competitive gaming. With computers ANYTHING is possible. I take Red Scarlet's/Smokey's super metroid speed runs with a grain of salt. I'm not saying they cheat, I'm saying there is no way to tell if they cheated. I've been playing games competitively for some time now and I've come across a few obvious cheaters, people I thought cheated that were just really good, cheats that I exposed to the public as possible, etc. IMO this feature will aid the cheaters and isn't of much use for anything else but if the developers want to spend their time on it that's fine. Any intelligent individual can cheat in competitive gaming and the removal of this feature won't let you sleep well at night. There's always doubt.

[Sawquid is your superior]

Go swallow worm-infested horse shit, assfuckers. May Falco shit in your coffee.

[DarkDragoon]

Hope you enjoyed your short time here.

You'll probably be burninated soon.

[rage46]

What?

[darkbenny]

Go swallow worm-infested horse shit, assfuckers. May Falco shit in your coffee.

Mommy didn't love you enough did she?

[rage46]

Must suck living by yourself 24/7 because you don't have friends.

[Blade556]

Holy crap, how long did it take you guys to read ANY of that?

[Agozer]

Well this was certainly new.

[ThunderClaw]

[quote="michael flatley"][/quote]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HOLY SHIT WHAT IS UP MICHAEL FLATNIGGER

[Astxist]

This thread started out alright, but now it seems to be getting worse by the post. Locked.


Astxist