So, SFIV is going to have 3D graphics.

[Snark]

Gil didn't "handled" my arguments either. Other than speculation, there was no proof given 2.5D games will have absolutely no impact on game;s mechanics.

No shit. Because the game mechanics vary EVEN WITHIN THE 2D GAMES.

Just look at the Alpha series. Tell me that played similar to SF2. I dare you.

Its doez play teh same, u do can fireballz jumpz etc the samez... its the samez /youtube

Seriously. Obviously the Alpha/Zero does significantly differ from the SF2-SSF2T series I never said 2D games do not differs one from another.

But I reiterate my earlier argument: Street fighter Ex is by far the most different SF in terms of gameplay "feel" than any other Street Fighters (possibly excluding SF(1)) and weirdly enough, other 2.5D games (Rival School series, the Final Fight Revenge crap) share extremely similar gameplay. Now I know that could be attributable to the fact they were all (afaik) made by Arika, but so far it seem SF4 have a similar feel (regardless of it's gfx)

I never made the argument that 3D was inherently "flaky" or "wonkie" or any other adjectives that ends with ie/y that denotes something unreliable or loose. I'm not saying it's inferior, I'm saying it's different.

Hell, game mechanics changed from Street Fighter 2 variant to Street Fighter 2 variant.

I know. Gamers familiars with all the series will remember the old: Opponents gets up > Get close > Crouching Jab, Jab, Jab > Throw > Repeat cheapass trick that was Afaik, unbeatable in the first SF2. No longer worked in later SF2x/SSF2x installments.

Any gameplay issues will not be due to the believed inherent flakiness of polygonal collision detection.
In point of fact, there's nothing stopping Capcom from running 2D hit patterns on top of the polygon models, so all gameplay is still handled by sprite equivalents. It'd certainly simplify the hit detection code.

And there's no certainties that Capcom would even try to do something like that.

And I didn't say it was "flakiness" but I think it often ends up being very different. Could a 2.5D fighter end up with the exact same gameplay as say SSF2T? Yes most likely, but it would probably require considerable amount of work and planning.

A lot of time those things as collision "feel" ends up being highly tied up to other fundamental part of the game's engine.

[Panzer88]

But I reiterate my earlier argument: Street fighter Ex is by far the most different SF in terms of gameplay "feel" than any other Street Fighters (possibly excluding SF(1)) and weirdly enough, other 2.5D games (Rival School series, the Final Fight Revenge crap) share extremely similar gameplay. Now I know that could be attributable to the fact they were all (afaik) made by Arika, but so far it seem SF4 have a similar feel (regardless of it's gfx)

Street Fighter EX couldn't have possibly have been made by their main team. no freaking way.

also EX does not win most different SF game, I would give that to Street Fighter:The Movie: The Game

play it on MAME for epic fail.

[Tallgeese]

Any gameplay issues will not be due to the believed inherent flakiness of polygonal collision detection.
In point of fact, there's nothing stopping Capcom from running 2D hit patterns on top of the polygon models, so all gameplay is still handled by sprite equivalents. It'd certainly simplify the hit detection code.

Funny thing; from what I undetrstand, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night did that backwards, rendering 2D effects using 3D techniques... which I probably phrased badly. It's why the Saturn version has missing effects despite being better for sprites, because they were done in 3D.

Blackmyst: Considering that you never made any valid points... there's not much to respond to.

Also yes, I am in a bad mood, because this topic is full of stupidity.

[sweener2001]

"moar like Cel-da amirite?"

EDIT: just for fun. this thread has nearly turned into that.

[I.S.T.]

Funny thing; from what I undetrstand, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night did that backwards, rendering 2D effects using 3D techniques... which I probably phrased badly. It's why the Saturn version has missing effects despite being better for sprites, because they were done in 3D.


Also yes, I am in a bad mood, because this topic is full of stupidity.

Every single sprite based/2D PS1 game was like that. The Saturn version sucking is due to Konami and Konami only.

And yes, this topic is full of lose.

[casualsax3]

fingerslam.

[Y~K]

3D can play like 2D, see SFEX

[Panzer88]

Funny thing; from what I undetrstand, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night did that backwards, rendering 2D effects using 3D techniques... which I probably phrased badly. It's why the Saturn version has missing effects despite being better for sprites, because they were done in 3D.


Also yes, I am in a bad mood, because this topic is full of stupidity.

Every single sprite based/2D PS1 game was like that. The Saturn version sucking is due to Konami and Konami only.

And yes, this topic is full of lose.

yes,what I.S.T. said, don't blame bad porting on system hardware, if pisses me off every time.

[I.S.T.]

Funny thing; from what I undetrstand, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night did that backwards, rendering 2D effects using 3D techniques... which I probably phrased badly. It's why the Saturn version has missing effects despite being better for sprites, because they were done in 3D.


Also yes, I am in a bad mood, because this topic is full of stupidity.

Every single sprite based/2D PS1 game was like that. The Saturn version sucking is due to Konami and Konami only.

And yes, this topic is full of lose.

yes,what I.S.T. said, don't blame bad porting on system hardware, if pisses me off every time.

I dunno if I'd get pissed off about it... >.>

Clarification on what I meant: The PS1 does not have any 2D hardware in it. Not do any of the 3D consoles since then(Except for possibly the X-Box and the PS3, given their usage of somewhat modified PC graphics chips). 2D games are not hard in the least to do on 3D hardware. It's even easier, depending on how you do things.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Any gameplay issues will not be due to the believed inherent flakiness of polygonal collision detection.
In point of fact, there's nothing stopping Capcom from running 2D hit patterns on top of the polygon models, so all gameplay is still handled by sprite equivalents. It'd certainly simplify the hit detection code.

Funny thing; from what I undetrstand, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night did that backwards, rendering 2D effects using 3D techniques... which I probably phrased badly. It's why the Saturn version has missing effects despite being better for sprites, because they were done in 3D.

Actually, it's because the PS1 and Saturn graphics chipsets supported different features in different ways. Certain transperency effects used on the PS1 didn't port easily to the Saturn.
KCEKobe flaked out and did the easy effect in a lot of cases instead of trying to recreate the PS effect.
KCEKobe flaked out on a lot of stuff with SotN Saturn.
Not that Sega is blameless. Sprite transparency on the Saturn hardware is WEIRD as I understand it(remember, sprites and polys are rendered on one chip, while backgrounds are rendered on a second chip).


And SotN actually uses the system's 2D capbilities for the most part, as I understand it.

Clarification on what I meant: The PS1 does not have any 2D hardware in it. Not do any of the 3D consoles since then(Except for possibly the X-Box and the PS3, given their usage of somewhat modified PC graphics chips). 2D games are not hard in the least to do on 3D hardware. It's even easier, depending on how you do things.

Actually, the PS1 DOES have significant 2D capabilities(hampered to a degree by the system's limited RAM).
Same for the Saturn(in fact, polygons in the Saturn are treated as special-case sprites).

It's just that no one talks about it on the PS1, partially because SCEA was pushing the 3D or nothing angle VERY hard.



I'm not sure about the PS2's capabilities(I'm betting it boils down to "everything the PS1 supports and not a single byte more"), but...

The DC uses a PC graphics chip(PowerVR2)... which means minimal 2D capability.
Same for the 360(and as you noted, the XBox and PS3). 'Cube/Wii is the same boat as well, if I'm not mistaken.


PC hardware actually sucks ass from a 2D graphics standpoint.
You have one sprite(the mouse cursor), and 1 graphics layer.
Pretty much everything is done in software, or on a 3D accelerator.

On the other hand, if you combine that with a powerful processor, it lets the system do a lot of things that might otherwise be impossible. Since the CPU is responsible for basically all the rendering, you can code whatever graphics mode you want.
Of course, you crash face-first into bandwidth constraints if you're trying to transfer very large images very frequently.

[I.S.T.]

FWIW, I'm going off of a few statements by Pete on NGemu's board. He mentioned that 2D games use triangles instead of traditional hardware accelerated sprites, or something similiar.

However, it's been years since I read this info, so my memory is a little hazy.

[Gil_Hamilton]

I take back everything nice I said about SF4.

http://www.insertcredit.com/archives/002231.html

Chun-Li... my poor Chun-Li... :'(


(Not that Ryu's looked very much outside of the one carefully-selected frame, and I doubt Chun-Li's is any different, but... my poor Chun-Li... :'( )

[Nightcrawler]

FWIW, I'm going off of a few statements by Pete on NGemu's board. He mentioned that 2D games use triangles instead of traditional hardware accelerated sprites, or something similiar.

However, it's been years since I read this info, so my memory is a little hazy.

I believe I.S.T. is correct. After a brief refresh on the PSX hardware documentation, it appears, it is only capable of drawing sprites via textured rectangles. It has some special GPU commands (specifically there is a primitive type for sprite) to make it easier so you don't have to draw the two triangles together and texture it like pure 3D, but what's actually done underneath is exactly that.

That's the 'textured quad' approach which is the fundamental way of achieving 2D graphics using 3D hardware. It's the only modern way to do 2D on PC hardware using D3D or OpenGL etc..

So, until somebody could show evidence that the system is capable of anything but drawing a textured quad/rectangle for a sprite, I rule I.S.T. is correct based on this documentation:

RHDN PSX Hardware Documenation

[Tallgeese]

He is correct, I've heard that from various PSX vs. Saturn SOTN discussions. Konami was verrry lazy in that port.

[Gil_Hamilton]

FWIW, I'm going off of a few statements by Pete on NGemu's board. He mentioned that 2D games use triangles instead of traditional hardware accelerated sprites, or something similiar.

However, it's been years since I read this info, so my memory is a little hazy.

I believe I.S.T. is correct. After a brief refresh on the PSX hardware documentation, it appears, it is only capable of drawing sprites via textured rectangles. It has some special GPU commands (specifically there is a primitive type for sprite) to make it easier so you don't have to draw the two triangles together and texture it like pure 3D, but what's actually done underneath is exactly that.

That's the 'textured quad' approach which is the fundamental way of achieving 2D graphics using 3D hardware. It's the only modern way to do 2D on PC hardware using D3D or OpenGL etc..

So, until somebody could show evidence that the system is capable of anything but drawing a textured quad/rectangle for a sprite, I rule I.S.T. is correct based on this documentation:

RHDN PSX Hardware Documenation

So the system provides 2D controls, but they're really just special-case 3D instructions?

That actually makes good design sense.
And it explains why I was seeing stuff saying the system had 2D capabilities. It sorta does, but really doesn't.

[snkcube]

I take back everything nice I said about SF4.

http://www.insertcredit.com/archives/002231.html

Chun-Li... my poor Chun-Li... :'(


(Not that Ryu's looked very much outside of the one carefully-selected frame, and I doubt Chun-Li's is any different, but... my poor Chun-Li... :'( )

It's not so bad. Unless you're referring to the bulge.

[Gil_Hamilton]

I take back everything nice I said about SF4.

http://www.insertcredit.com/archives/002231.html

Chun-Li... my poor Chun-Li... :'(


(Not that Ryu's looked very much outside of the one carefully-selected frame, and I doubt Chun-Li's is any different, but... my poor Chun-Li... :'( )

It's not so bad. Unless you're referring to the bulge.

Well, I MAY be mistaken, but I think the entire article is about a picture of Chun-Li's penis, so... yes. I meant the bulge.

[snkcube]

I take back everything nice I said about SF4.

http://www.insertcredit.com/archives/002231.html

Chun-Li... my poor Chun-Li... :'(


(Not that Ryu's looked very much outside of the one carefully-selected frame, and I doubt Chun-Li's is any different, but... my poor Chun-Li... :'( )

It's not so bad. Unless you're referring to the bulge.

Well, I MAY be mistaken, but I think the entire article is about a picture of Chun-Li's penis, so... yes. I meant the bulge.

I'm just hoping Capcom will fix the bulging problems. Chun-Li MUST be fixed.

[Gil_Hamilton]

I take back everything nice I said about SF4.

http://www.insertcredit.com/archives/002231.html

Chun-Li... my poor Chun-Li... :'(


(Not that Ryu's looked very much outside of the one carefully-selected frame, and I doubt Chun-Li's is any different, but... my poor Chun-Li... :'( )

It's not so bad. Unless you're referring to the bulge.

Well, I MAY be mistaken, but I think the entire article is about a picture of Chun-Li's penis, so... yes. I meant the bulge.

I'm just hoping Capcom will fix the bulging problems. Chun-Li MUST be fixed.

I'm sure it's just careful selection of a single photo with a piece of cloth hanging funny. Just like last time.
But it's too late, what's done is done, and some things can't be unseen. :'(

[Panzer88]

I take back everything nice I said about SF4.

http://www.insertcredit.com/archives/002231.html

Chun-Li... my poor Chun-Li... :'(


(Not that Ryu's looked very much outside of the one carefully-selected frame, and I doubt Chun-Li's is any different, but... my poor Chun-Li... :'( )

It's not so bad. Unless you're referring to the bulge.

Well, I MAY be mistaken, but I think the entire article is about a picture of Chun-Li's penis, so... yes. I meant the bulge.

it's not a penis, it's a diaper. Don't be prejudice against people with bladder control problems.

equal opportunity and all that

OR they could just be drawing her funky, either way.

[Clements]

Her mons pubis does indeed resemble Linford Christie's Lunchbox.