<blitzkrieg> testing, testing, 1 2

[grinvader]

Time for me to get a new compy. However, I'm out of the model/cost/performance loop for freaking years, so there are high chances I'm gonna get trounced and end up with shiny crapola SX.

So, please help me separate the good from the bad or the ewwgly.
As an overall note I'm not interested in hemorrhagic edge hardware, especially on some aspects (will mention where needed). So stuff from last year's probably fine. On the other hand I can use recent stuff as well.
Budget 1~2K, rough estimate.

- intel cpu. Core 2 Duo likely, but which flavour ? Solidly tested preferred. Won't overclock anything.
- mobo that goes with it, some good SATA (3Gb/s iinm), enough USB2 (>=5, but if possible 1 or 2 in FRONT of the board... dunno if they do that with recent stuff), PCI-E 16x for the video card, 4 slots of RAM (dual-channel if someone cares to specify what good would come from it), nfi about the rest...
- RAMZ. 2x1 GB of it, needless hype begone. 4x1GB if cash left at the end.
- non-ricer case that fits the mobo and with enough room for the rest.
- nvidia video card but nothing monstrous. It's not gonna be a gamer's PC by far. VGA/DVI ports in accordance with...
- decent lcd monitor. Nothing blatantly cashburning, but enough to get satisfaction (I like my blacks black and my pixels not dead).
- sound card. Anything that spits stereo and the less driver issues, the better. I don't need anything above 2:0, but it seems nothing does that anymore. For all I care if there's a decently supported onboard chip I'll cope with it.
- what else... CD&DVD+/-R&RW reader, unless burners are cheaper (right...).
- 3.5" floppy drive, just because.
- ah yeah, a 500GB HDD. If there's enough cash left at the end make that 2.
- PSU in accordance with all that stuff.
- logitech trackball with less than 5 buttons. I'm not a fucking alien. Also fuck mice.
- standard AZERTY keyb. Extra fancy keys are a complete waste on me.
- whatever i forgot.

Fire away, mateys !

[odditude]

Suggestions with NewEgg links. Rough prices are in USD.

Motherboard: ASUS P5K-SE, $100

Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E6750, $190
By the time you buy this, the C2D E8200 may be available; pricing should be similar with improved performance and thermals.

Memory: Kingston HyperX 2GB PC2-6400 Kit (chosen because it's on sale), $50 ($40 after rebate)

Video card: if you're not gaming, it's not going to matter much. Find something on sale that doesn't use "TurboCache" (aka system memory), $40

Case + Power supply: Antec Sonata III 500, $120 (I never go cheap on PSUs as a rule)

Optical drive: Any SATA burner, $24 (splurge for chrissakes)

Hard drives: 2 x Western Digital WD50000AAKS, $105 each

Floppy: Mitsumi floppy + card reader, $19 (again, splurge)

Trackball: Pick one, <$35

Keyboard: No clue. I do QWERTY.

Monitor: No clue, haven't looked in years.

Before keyboard and monitor, this comes out to under $900US. I don't remember where you are, so no clue what kind of taxes or shipping you'll get from your favorite (hopefully more local) online retailer.

EDIT: Added the E8200 for processor option, assuming it's on the market sometime soon.
I'm personally waiting for the Q9450 to come out; I've had a P35 board and memory for a month and have been cursing myself since the mainstream Yorkfields got pushed back.

[Panzer88]

are you looking for LCD or CRT? how big?

[Deathlike2]

are you looking for LCD or CRT? how big?

- decent lcd monitor. Nothing blatantly cashburning, but enough to get satisfaction (I like my blacks black and my pixels not dead).

You can get 19" LCDs for like $200 (bigger/cheaper can certainly be had)... then again I'd suggest looking for a decent deal pixel warrenty or whatnot.

[Panzer88]

hmm, well I'm officially blind.

[Cyrus]

The new revision of Core 2 Duos (Wolfdale/Penryn) are faster clock for clock than the old Conroe Core 2s and have more L2 cache (and where I live, cost less than the Conroe equals). You might not be interested in the newer hardware but some of the newer stuff is actually cheaper and even the lastest crap fits well into your budget.

This is the setup I recommend:

CPU: Core 2 Duo E8400 - Wolfdale 3GHz, 6MB L2, supposedly can OC to 4.4GHz+ on air

GPU: GeForce 8800GT 512MB - Faster and cheaper than the old 8800GTS. For the brand get EVGA, BFG or XFX since those companies offer lifetime warranty. Spend the extra $15-$20 (yes you can find it if you look around) to get the Superclocked, OC2 or XXX version which are the higher pre-overclocked versions (from each brand respectively). I recommend doing so because the higher pre-overclocked ones are guaranteed to be higher binned cores as opposed to taking a gamble and hoping you end up with a good one.

Mobo: Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3-whatever (there is DS3R, DS3L, DS3P... depends what features you want) these motherboards are relatively cheap compared to others, use solid state capacitors and overclock a lot... though I don't know if they support the new Wolfdale cores or not, they may need a BIOS update. If they do not support Wolfdale CPUs then I'm not sure what to recommend at the moment.

RAM: 4GB of whatever floats your boat since prices WIDELY vary on DDR2 and almost all brands offer lifetime warranty (a shop near me sells 4GB sets of DDR2-800 for $86 after they sold a ton for $73). Consider higher speeds if you plan on overclocking. Micron D9GMH and D9GKX seem to be the best IC types for overclocking.
Here is a list of IC types for DDR2: http://ramlist.ath.cx/ddr2/

PSU: Just use a power supply calculator to figure out what you need. Make sure it's a brand name one with at least 2 12v rails (the el cheapo non brand name ones tend to lie about the specs and blow up eventually). Make sure you know how much juice you'll need total on the 12v rails.
Here is a calculator but they're jerks and don't let the pro one be used for free: http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculator.jsp
And always make sure the PSU has the right amount/type of wires you'll need... video cards like the Radeon HD series use a 6 pin AND 8 pin connector at once.

The rest is more or less a matter of opinion since unlike the other parts there isn't exactly a very clear best choice for the price/value, for a case I personally use an Antec 900... and for a monitor you might want to get one with an HDMI port :/

Oh, and to make use of 4GB of RAM your OS is going to have to be 64 bit.


There might be better choices (hopefully new motherboards for Wolfdales) at this point which I'm not be aware of, you might want to ask on Guru3D if you want to put in the effort.

[franpa]

BFG only offer lifetime waranty to America and Canada. most other places only get 10 year warranty on the card and 1 year on the graphics card fan.

http://www.bfgtech.com/warranty.aspx

* Product is protected for the product’s lifetime in the United States and Canada, and 10 years from the date of purchase in all countries outside the US and Canada, against defects in material and workmanship.

BFG Technologies is proud to warrant the original purchaser of the Graphics Card Fan included in this package ("Product") that the Product will be free from defects in material or workmanship for a period of one (1) year from the original date of purchase of the product, when given normal wear and proper usage. This warranty is valid if the product:

[Gil_Hamilton]

BFG only offer lifetime waranty to America and Canada. most other places only get 10 year warranty on the card and 1 year on the graphics card fan.

http://www.bfgtech.com/warranty.aspx

* Product is protected for the product’s lifetime in the United States and Canada, and 10 years from the date of purchase in all countries outside the US and Canada, against defects in material and workmanship.

BFG Technologies is proud to warrant the original purchaser of the Graphics Card Fan included in this package ("Product") that the Product will be free from defects in material or workmanship for a period of one (1) year from the original date of purchase of the product, when given normal wear and proper usage. This warranty is valid if the product:

Does it really matter? If you're still using the video card a decade from now, you'll be able to get something better for less than it'll cost to ship it back.

[grinvader]

Hmm, I knew I was kinda out of it...

Suggestions

I see... nice stuff.

CPU: OC
GPU: overclocked
Mobo: overclock
RAM: overclocking

Ok, so you kinda missed the part that says I don't overclock anything. Oh well, thanks for your contribution.

Since I read conflicting feedback on the E**** cpus heat, anyone want to point out if I'll need a custom cpu fan or if the stock one will do ? I don't -exactly- want freezing gusts in my living room, so latter preferred (no shit).

Oh, and to make use of 4GB of RAM your OS is going to have to be 64 bit.

Who the hell set the memory bus on a signed int32 ? Fucking morons.
... might as well go with 4x2GB and ooze ram out of my ears then.

From what I gather I could pull a very decent system for ~$1300, less than 1K of my non-monopoly money (hurhurhur). Sweet.

Further suggestions/advice/warnings are still welcome.

[LobStar]

E**** series cpu's are very overclockable on stock coolers if thats what you were asking. So no, no custom fans needed just to run it either .

[Gil_Hamilton]

On the other hand, a third-party heatsink could let you run your CPU with a slower, quieter fan. Or even with no fan.

Though I'd re-sink your GPU first. They have atrociously noisy and inefficient stock coolers.

[Cyrus]

Yeah I didn't see that part where you said you don't want to overclock at all... though on a Core 2 Duo that's nothing to be afraid of.

On average Core 2 Duos tend to overclock a fair amount on stock cooling and even without voltage increase. If you get an E8400 you can probably push it to 3.6GHz+ without any voltage increase, to make sure though you can look up a bunch of reviews.

As for a 64 bit OS being required to use larger amounts of RAM... Physical Address Extension in Windows XP 32 bit was supposed to allow 4GB of RAM to be used but Micro$oft fucked up and it doesn't work. I don't remember the details at all, maybe because it allows the OS to access 4GB memory total and not just from system RAM? I don't know! Perhaps the magical answer is here (I didn't read it yet): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension

Another important thing I forgot to mention, Micro$oft thought it'd be awesome-to-the-MAX idea to further increase system requirements for Windows Vista by removing DirectSound/DirectSound3D from their lovely new OS so any load which would have previously been on the sound card now goes directly to the CPU, huzzah! Meaning if you were planning on buying a SoundBlaster X-Fi and using it in Vista, you're screwed since Creative X-Fis use DirectSound. I think Creative made Vista drivers for the X-Fi series which use OpenAL by using wrappers but last I heard they didn't work very well.

I'm not sure if the Auzentech X-Fi Prelude relies on DirectSound as well or not but even if it doesn't the last time I checked the X-Fi Prelude cost an arm, a leg, 18 liters of virgin blood and 2 pure souls.

One final note about sound cards... the lowest end Creative X-Fi (whatever it's called) does not actually have X-Fi hardware and it's more like an Audigy since Creative find lying to be an awesome pastime.

[DataPath]

Oh, and to make use of 4GB of RAM your OS is going to have to be 64 bit.

That's not exactly true.

With 32-bits, you can address a full 4GB of memory. But normally, Windows maps device addresses into the top ~256MB of of the 4GB memory range.

If you have 3GB of RAM or less, this isn't a problem. But if you have 4GB of RAM, then you won't be able to use that top 256-512MB of RAM. Unless, of course, PAE is enabled.

Which, IIRC, is enabled by default on Win2k and newer on all systems that support it.

[...] Systems booted /PAE can support up to 64GB physical memory. A 32-bit process can "use" large amounts of memory via AWE (address windowing extension) functions. This means that they must map views of the physical memory they allocate into their 2GB virtual address space. Essentially, they can only use 2GB of memory at a time.

All of the Intel x86 family processors since the Pentium Pro include a memory-mapping mode called Physical Address Extension (PAE). With the proper chipset, the PAE mode allows access to up to 64 GB of physical memory. When the x86 executes in PAE mode, the memory management unit (MMU) divides virtual addresses into four fields.

PAE mode can address more memory than the standard translation mode [...] [and] the system represents physical addresses internally with 24 bits, which gives the x86 the ability to support a maximum of 2^(24+12) bytes, or 64 GB, of memory.

[Cyrus]

Oh, and to make use of 4GB of RAM your OS is going to have to be 64 bit.

That's not exactly true.

You didn't read what I wrote in my last post. PAE doesn't work properly in 32 bit OSes. Anyway, look it up if you don't want to take my word for it. Or give it a shot, install 4GB of RAM in 32 bit Windows with PAE enabled and see what happens. People wouldn't be whining that their OS only detects 2-point-something-GB of RAM instead of 4GB if PAE really worked or if just 512MB couldn't be read. Apparently the more video RAM there is the less the system RAM the OS detects as well (as in there must be more factors).

[DataPath]

Oh, and to make use of 4GB of RAM your OS is going to have to be 64 bit.

That's not exactly true.

You didn't read what I wrote in my last post. PAE doesn't work properly in 32 bit OSes. Anyway, look it up if you don't want to take my word for it. Or give it a shot, install 4GB of RAM in 32 bit Windows with PAE enabled and see what happens. People wouldn't be whining that their OS only detects 2-point-something-GB of RAM instead of 4GB if PAE really worked or if just 512MB couldn't be read. Apparently the more video RAM there is the less the system RAM the OS detects as well (as in there must be more factors).

Hmm. It worked alright for me. Somewhere around 3.78GB of RAM.

*shrug*

Ahhh... in Microsoft's documentation:

To reduce driver compatibility issues, Windows Vista and Windows XP Service Pack 2 include hardware abstraction layer (HAL) changes that mimic the 32-bit HAL DMA behavior.

Tricky fellas, I tell you. It did used to work... sort of, before XP SP2, with the PAE HAL. But it caused driver incompatibilities when trying to DMA memory regions over the 4GB mark, because PCI can't address more than 32-bits, either.

But this is getting off-topic. Sorry about that.

[DOLLS (J) [!]]

I'm not sure if the Auzentech X-Fi Prelude relies on DirectSound as well or not but even if it doesn't the last time I checked the X-Fi Prelude cost an arm, a leg, 18 liters of virgin blood and 2 pure souls.

It uses the X-Fi processor and even a big part of creative's drivers. It's expensive because it has really high quality components, so it's meant to be an audiophile-grade card... Consider it only if you already own hi-fi audio components and are really concerned about audio quality.

[odditude]

Since I read conflicting feedback on the E**** cpus heat, anyone want to point out if I'll need a custom cpu fan or if the stock one will do ? I don't -exactly- want freezing gusts in my living room, so latter preferred (no shit).

Stock fan will be fine. The only reason you would need to spend money on a third-party cooler would be for noise reduction, but it's unlikely you'll ever hear the fan unless you want dead silence. Believe it or not, the current Intel stock cooler is rather nice for a pack-in.

You may find it worthwhile to invest in an additional 120mm fan if you go with the Sonata III, however - the extra noise will be minimal if you go with a quality fan (still no more than $10) and the additional airflow will help calm your nerves (not to mention keeping your pair of hard drives nice and cool).

[whicker]

Since I read conflicting feedback on the E**** cpus heat, anyone want to point out if I'll need a custom cpu fan or if the stock one will do ? I don't -exactly- want freezing gusts in my living room, so latter preferred (no shit).

Stock fan will be fine. The only reason you would need to spend money on a third-party cooler would be for noise reduction, but it's unlikely you'll ever hear the fan unless you want dead silence. Believe it or not, the current Intel stock cooler is rather nice for a pack-in.

You may find it worthwhile to invest in an additional 120mm fan if you go with the Sonata III, however - the extra noise will be minimal if you go with a quality fan (still no more than $10) and the additional airflow will help calm your nerves (not to mention keeping your pair of hard drives nice and cool).

This is quoted for emphasis.

Whatever the squeaky 16-year-old enthusiasts would have you believe, both Intel and AMD would NOT sell a CPU/FAN combo if the fan and heatsink could not keep up with the thermal dissipation of the chip.

(Now, it's a completely different story with nVidia and their video card's reference cooler.)

[Nach]

Regarding a video card, I wouldn't want anything power hungry with all kinds of extra connectors, nor want to spend a lot, but consider what it decent, and will have good support now, and for several years to come.

I'm thinking GeForce 8 line, since you know nvidia has good drivers and they'll be around even 5 years from now without becoming legacy. Also if you want something a bit above business for the occasional game, but without going nuts on needing extra power connectors and what not, perhaps you want an 8600 which can be gotten for less than $100.

See these two:
Comes overclocked, 256 MB RAM, 2 DVI (DVI-> VGA converter included): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814127286

512 MB RAM, 1 DVI, 1 VGA: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814127310


For your optical media, I specifically recommend NOT getting SATA. First of all, for your reading and burning, they don't even offer SATA speeds, and if the the burner is the only IDE drive, it doesn't matter. Also leaves room for plenty of HDs later, and not forcing you to paint yourself into settling with IDE.

At the moment SATA isn't good because of how hard it is to get drivers for them. You're not so easily going to find your OS's install CD with SATA drivers for your brand new motherboard. IDE at this point runs off of generic drivers for just about everything.

Getting an IDE drive insures that your OS CD at least finds itself (yay, you can use Knoppix!), and that you can use a LiveCD as a rescue disk at any time if need be. It also allows an install CD to at least start booting, and then search the web to get the newest Kernels that may not be in the install CD that's only updated every 6 months, and then using the new Kernel, find the SATA HDs, and install.

CD/DVD/+/-/R/RW/RAM, $27: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6827136134

[franpa]

Stock cooler for the e6750 is dead silent if you don't put your head within 30cm of it and keeps the chip well below max temperature. The only noise i hear is from my video card and a very faint buzz from the small 90mm fan on the back of the case.

[Nightcrawler]

For your optical media, I specifically recommend NOT getting SATA. First of all, for your reading and burning, they don't even offer SATA speeds, and if the the burner is the only IDE drive, it doesn't matter. Also leaves room for plenty of HDs later, and not forcing you to paint yourself into settling with IDE.

At the moment SATA isn't good because of how hard it is to get drivers for them. You're not so easily going to find your OS's install CD with SATA drivers for your brand new motherboard. IDE at this point runs off of generic drivers for just about everything.

Getting an IDE drive insures that your OS CD at least finds itself (yay, you can use Knoppix!), and that you can use a LiveCD as a rescue disk at any time if need be. It also allows an install CD to at least start booting, and then search the web to get the newest Kernels that may not be in the install CD that's only updated every 6 months, and then using the new Kernel, find the SATA HDs, and install.

CD/DVD/+/-/R/RW/RAM, $27: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6827136134

I disagree. I just put together a new system for someone a few weeks ago using an ABIT IP35-E board and an SATA Samsung drive. I needed no drivers, at least in the case of Windows XP. I was able to boot the OS CD without issue or any extra effort.

Perhaps Linux is different, but shortcomings of a specific OS is no reason to recommend not getting an SATA drive.

[paulguy]

As for Windows SATA drive support, you can stick the driver right on the CD with some certain tools or there's a key you have to hit at bootup to tell it you've got a driver disk. As for Linux, im sure it's SATA support, as it's support for any other hard drive interface, is impeccable.

[Clements]

Yeah, the inside of my case is a mess with all those huge IDE cables. SATA everything would improve airflow no end if you decided to go that route.

[odditude]

For your optical media, I specifically recommend NOT getting SATA. First of all, for your reading and burning, they don't even offer SATA speeds, and if the the burner is the only IDE drive, it doesn't matter. Also leaves room for plenty of HDs later, and not forcing you to paint yourself into settling with IDE.

At the moment SATA isn't good because of how hard it is to get drivers for them. You're not so easily going to find your OS's install CD with SATA drivers for your brand new motherboard. IDE at this point runs off of generic drivers for just about everything.

Getting an IDE drive insures that your OS CD at least finds itself (yay, you can use Knoppix!), and that you can use a LiveCD as a rescue disk at any time if need be. It also allows an install CD to at least start booting, and then search the web to get the newest Kernels that may not be in the install CD that's only updated every 6 months, and then using the new Kernel, find the SATA HDs, and install.

CD/DVD/+/-/R/RW/RAM, $27: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6827136134

I suggested a SATA optical drive because the current Intel chipsets (including the P35/ICH9 that this motherboard is based off of) do not natively support IDE anymore. The provided IDE interface is powered by a third-party chipset (in this case, a Marvell 88SE6111), which you're just as likely to have potential driver issues with under Linux.

For Windows, ASUS motherboards ship with the relevant F6 floppy images on the driver CD. Also, since it's an Intel chipset board, the drivers are always available at http://support.intel.com.

Also, the IDE connector placement sucks horribly on this motherboard. If you go with IDE for the optical drive, do yourself a favor and get a 24" or maybe even 36" rounded IDE cable. (Despite the standard requiring an 18" max cable, I haven't seen any issues with longer rounded cabling, even at ATA100/133 speeds.)

Also leaves room for plenty of HDs later, and not forcing you to paint yourself into settling with IDE.

Can't argue this point. The question becomes do you see yourself using more than three hard drives?

[kevman]

The reason why Sata drives (may) work in XP out of the box is becuase the BIOS has legacy Sata support; if the OS isn't Sata aware, the BIOS makes it look like a standard IDE. You can boot the XP install disc out of a USB CD-ROM drive if you want, too.

On my laptop, I can boot a DOS disc (like the WIndows 98 disc) and see my Sata drives AND my USB thumbdrives in FDISK!

Installing XP to Sata HDs may or may not require a floppy drive. Usually you only need one if you're going to use RAID.