ROM translation not illegal?

tcaudilllg2 · Post by **tcaudilllg2** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:02 pm

According to Wikipedia, software reverse-engineering is permitted under fair use copyright law. ROM patches amount only to reverse-engineering and in no way amount to copying.

blackmyst · Post by **blackmyst** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:22 pm

Umm... yeah? That's pretty much the reason why all translators (that I know of) have only ever distributed patches and not translated roms since the beginning of time, isn't it?

paulguy · Post by **paulguy** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:27 pm

Haven't some translation efforts been served cease and desist letters?

Post by **Agozer** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:45 pm

paulguy wrote:Haven't some translation efforts been served cease and desist letters?

Not that I remember. Fangames yes, but translations?

I could be wrong, though.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:59 pm

The fact that you're using Wikipedia (which is already massive fail) and that you've not really researched the current state of translations is appalling.

Translations can be done for any game.. the community itself generally frowns upon translations created for games that being actively sold (for the latest consoles) which could potentially have a translation for another language (generally Jap games that will have an English version within a year or two). This is primarily to avoid any negative publicity to the situation.

blargg · Post by **blargg** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:57 pm

Translations can be done for any game.. the community itself generally frowns upon translations created for games that being actively sold (for the latest consoles) which could potentially have a translation for another language (generally Jap games that will have an English version within a year or two). This is primarily to avoid any negative publicity to the situation.

What does this have to do with the legality of it, which is that the original poster was commenting on?

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:03 pm

I'd say the legality starts hitting the fan if it were sold for profit... generally speaking. Most companies will get on your case in that instance.. for copyright, but mostly for $$$.

I think only one "major" hack (not a translation though) was created had a "cease and desist order" was used. It probably had something to do with being part of the "Chrono Trigger universe" although I wouldn't know what the true reason was (I'm only going on my recollection, so meh).

neo_bahamut1985 · Post by **neo_bahamut1985** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:36 am

Well, the thing that pisses me off the most is when companies (*cough*Nintendo/HAL*cough) refuse to release games, like Mother 3, outside of Japan. What's wrong? Are they afraid of making more money or something? That's when other people are smart and decide to translate the game into English unofficially. Whether doing so is illegal or not I could care less. It's the the company's mistake for not releasing it in outside of Japan in the first place.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:46 am

neo_bahamut1985 wrote:Well, the thing that pisses me off the most is when companies (*cough*Nintendo/HAL*cough) refuse to release games, like Mother 3, outside of Japan. What's wrong? Are they afraid of making more money or something?

It's a business decision. Whether you hate it or like it, that's the way things are. It's not that they aren't considering costs (which they do), but they have to factor in the effort in doing so.

See, most of the US complains about Jap games get no translation... on the other hand, the guys in Europe get screwed over because they don't even get a port period.

ZH/Franky · Post by **ZH/Franky** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:31 am

See, most of the US complains about Jap games get no translation

Despite what some people may tell you, Japanese is actually quite a simple language. With determination, it only takes a few years to learn (though becoming fluent can take longer, and is only really possible by actually living in a Japanese-speaking community).

... on the other hand, the guys in Europe get screwed over because they don't even get a port period.

Most TV's in Europe support 60hz, and even if they don't support NTSC (which is a mystery to me since NTSC is the only standard that natively uses 60hz; my old TV supported 60hz but not NTSC <_<), we just just use colour converters. As long as you're willing to put in the effort and wait a while for something to arrive (and possibly mod your console), it doesn't matter if a game isn't released in your region.

...My TV supports PAL, NTSC, and SECAM, so I'm able to fully enjoy games from any region.

... On the other hand, translation quality when a game is translated, has improved over the years, a lot. Remember Final Fantasy VII? The translation was poor (spelling mistakes, etc, all over the place, and the dialog was.. poor). Look at games now, for example, all of the Metal Gear Solid games are translated so well... that it's as if the game was originally intended for the language it was translated into.
(In fact, after comparing video clips on the net, I think the English translation of MGS4 is miles better than the Japanese voices and whatnot).

neo_bahamut1985 · Post by **neo_bahamut1985** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:36 am

Oh, how I would love to just rub all links about unofficially translated never-before released games in their faces!

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:41 am

Franky wrote:
See, most of the US complains about Jap games get no translation
Despite what some people may tell you, Japanese is actually quite a simple language. With determination, it only takes a few years to learn (though becoming fluent can take longer, and is only really possible by actually living in a Japanese-speaking community).

That's not the point. Not everyone is entirely interested in Japanese-specific humor/references. That's where localization comes into play.

... on the other hand, the guys in Europe get screwed over because they don't even get a port period.
Most TV's in Europe support 60hz, and even if they don't support NTSC (which is a mystery to me since NTSC is the only standard that natively uses 60hz; my old TV supported 60hz but not NTSC <_<), we just just use colour converters. As long as you're willing to put in the effort and wait a while for something to arrive (and possibly mod your console), it doesn't matter if a game isn't released in your region.

...My TV supports PAL, NTSC, and SECAM, so I'm able to fully enjoy games from any region.

I'm referring to the (older) games back in the day.. nowadays that is a lesser concern.

neo_bahamut1985 wrote:Oh, how I would love to just rub all links about unofficially translated never-before released games in their faces!

You idiot. What you are suggesting on hurts the romhacking community, not help it. Doing anything to piss off companies tends to hinder progress and potentially prevent future translations to be done by others.

tcaudilllg2 · Post by **tcaudilllg2** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:47 am

I floated a possibility around romhacking.net about translators approaching companies about games they don't plan to release outside of Japan. The idea was "getting rid of the middle man" by asking companies to condone unofficial translations for products they see as having limited market outreach. Fans could import non-translated copies of the game direct from the producing company and apply the patch of their choice.

As it is we are so far behind in the culture gap that we may never completely catch up. But hey, if reverse-engineering is fine and dandy, then maybe more people will take up the challenge. If anything at all about fan trans is "illegal", it's that copies of these games are so hard to find that presumably most of the people playing do not own the games. (but that's the fault of the company, not the gamer, in my view). It's not a thing at all to burn like, 10,000 copies of a game at $1 a copy for specialty markets, or even more appropriate, uploading the ROM/ISO to the internet, which costs next to nothing.

As it is, the only casualties are their own profits falling due to their attempts to repress the free exchange of creative information. Moreover, the law of supply and demand expects that where there is demand, supply will be met in proportion to the demand. Anything else is bad business.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:50 am

tcaudilllg2 wrote:I floated a possibility around romhacking.net about translators approaching companies about games they don't plan to release outside of Japan. The idea was "getting rid of the middle man" by asking companies to condone unofficial translations for products they see as having limited market outreach. Fans could import non-translated copies of the game direct from the producing company and apply the patch of their choice.

Unless the companies make $$$ out of this (or they feel they benefit in some way), it won't happen. It's too idealistic and would most likely not happen anytime soon.

ZH/Franky · Post by **ZH/Franky** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:53 am

Deathlike2 wrote: That's not the point. Not everyone is entirely interested in Japanese-specific humor/references. That's where localization comes into play.

Hmm, I suppose.

I'm referring to the (older) games back in the day.. nowadays that is a lesser concern.

Hell yes. The PS3 is an example of that (region free for gaming).

But I see what you mean; in the olden days, people didn't have internet, so it was harder to import things. And TV's weren't as multi-standard either.

Joe Camacho · Post by **Joe Camacho** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:20 am

tcaudilllg2 wrote:As it is we are so far behind in the culture gap that we may never completely catch up. But hey, if reverse-engineering is fine and dandy, then maybe more people will take up the challenge. If anything at all about fan trans is "illegal", it's that copies of these games are so hard to find that presumably most of the people playing do not own the games. (but that's the fault of the company, not the gamer, in my view). It's not a thing at all to burn like, 10,000 copies of a game at $1 a copy for specialty markets, or even more appropriate, uploading the ROM/ISO to the internet, which costs next to nothing.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Now that's a good one. So it's Company X fault that he doesn't support a market? Maybe because the market is already dead? If someone creates ANYTHING physical or mental property, it's in their own right what to do with it. Some companies release the source code, others release the games for free, other uses Digital Distribution, like Live Arcade or Virtual Console.

But what other companies doesn't obligate others to do the same, and in no way gives you the right to use their intelectual property without their permission. Sorry dude, you will need something better to sleep at night while you download all those RAMZ.

There is nothing illegal with making translation patches, in the same way there is nothing illegal with emulators, it's the user's conduct which will determine if it's an illegal activity or not.

tcaudilllg2 wrote: As it is, the only casualties are their own profits falling due to their attempts to repress the free exchange of creative information. Moreover, the law of supply and demand expects that where there is demand, supply will be met in proportion to the demand. Anything else is bad business.

FREE EXCHANGE OF CREATIVE INFORMATION. Sure dude, whatever. Guess what? "Creative information" can be owned, and if the owner decides to keep it, or dare I say sell it, they are in their own right to do so. If an artist, creative, singer, etc. wants to share his work with the rest of the world, he is free to do so, but please respect the wishes of those who would like to make a profit with their work.

If it's their decision to shove that property up their asses and not let anyone use it, well sorry dude, even if they "lose money". If that helps you sleep at night while you download RAMZ, be my guess though.

I still haven't found a person that likes being plagiarized or someone that likes his patents or copyrights being infringed.

Panzer88 · Post by **Panzer88** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:32 am

Deathlike2 wrote:
That's not the point. Not everyone is entirely interested in Japanese-specific humor/references. That's where localization comes into play.

just because something is written in Japanese doesn't mean it includes Japanese humour, references, or culture, just like anything written in English doesn't have English references, I've read many books in English that are about Spanish culture and include Spanish nods etc.

Deathlike2 wrote:
neo_bahamut1985 wrote:Oh, how I would love to just rub all links about unofficially translated never-before released games in their faces!
You idiot. What you are suggesting on hurts the romhacking community, not help it. Doing anything to piss off companies tends to hinder progress and potentially prevent future translations to be done by others.

while you are right that that is a bad attitude, dumb move, and would hurt the community, and cause them not to release more translations, I've always wondered why.

you'd think that if they localized their products it would quell the fans and they wouldn't have to deal with as many fan translations because the vast majority would be satisfied.

just wondering, I've never understood this.

neo_bahamut1985 wrote:Well, the thing that pisses me off the most is when companies (*cough*Nintendo/HAL*cough) refuse to release games, like Mother 3, outside of Japan. What's wrong

the sales would be minimal, when they could spend that manpower localizing something that could potentially sell 10x as much, sorry man, that's life, not saying I like it, but that's it.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:11 am

Panzer88 wrote:
Deathlike2 wrote:
That's not the point. Not everyone is entirely interested in Japanese-specific humor/references. That's where localization comes into play.
just because something is written in Japanese doesn't mean it includes Japanese humour, references, or culture, just like anything written in English doesn't have English references, I've read many books in English that are about Spanish culture and include Spanish nods etc.

I think you're reading way too much into what I meant. Some games intentionally introduce elements from different cultures. I'm certainly not against that stuff. I'm talking about Japanese specific puns and the like, which don't always translate into English too well... pretty much any stuff that isn't integral into the game usually falls into that that catagory.

Deathlike2 wrote:
neo_bahamut1985 wrote:Oh, how I would love to just rub all links about unofficially translated never-before released games in their faces!
You idiot. What you are suggesting on hurts the romhacking community, not help it. Doing anything to piss off companies tends to hinder progress and potentially prevent future translations to be done by others.
while you are right that that is a bad attitude, dumb move, and would hurt the community, and cause them not to release more translations, I've always wondered why.

you'd think that if they localized their products it would quell the fans and they wouldn't have to deal with as many fan translations because the vast majority would be satisfied.

just wondering, I've never understood this.

neo_bahamut1985 wrote:Well, the thing that pisses me off the most is when companies (*cough*Nintendo/HAL*cough) refuse to release games, like Mother 3, outside of Japan. What's wrong

the sales would be minimal, when they could spend that manpower localizing something that could potentially sell 10x as much, sorry man, that's life, not saying I like it, but that's it.

Let's put it this way... the only way companies care is if the "perceived" demand is greater than the cost to translate the game. Sometimes they just might be right. Perhaps you should look into the sales of Earthbound and see how it did. Mind you that is not a complete answer or even a reason why, but it could provide insight as to why that happens to be the case.

funkyass · Post by **funkyass** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:47 am

the issues concerning fan translations are immense.

the manner in which most translations for roms are distrubuted do not violate copyrights on the roms they are applied to.

The acutal creation itself is another matter, similar to anime situations, with the general trend fo gaming studios to ignore it.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:38 pm

funkyass wrote:the issues concerning fan translations are immense.

the manner in which most translations for roms are distrubuted do not violate copyrights on the roms they are applied to.

The acutal creation itself is another matter, similar to anime situations, with the general trend fo gaming studios to ignore it.

You want to elaborate on the last statement a little bit further? I find it a bit curious.

Edit: Never mind, it was explained to me.

Johan_H · Post by **Johan_H** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:32 pm

Joe Camacho wrote:I still haven't found a person that likes being plagiarized or someone that likes his patents or copyrights being infringed.

Pixel, the author of Cave Story, doesn't mind and actually seems to like people plagiarizing (The Underside), reverse engineering, and hacking his copyrighted material without asking for his permission. Just saying.

corronchilejano · Post by **corronchilejano** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:03 pm

Some US Nintendo workers are waiting for the Mother3 fan translation, altough not everyone is so care free Mr Hamburger. People can just say creative rights are being violated, and that's that, end of the line.

Joe Camacho · Post by **Joe Camacho** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:32 pm

Johan_H wrote:
Joe Camacho wrote:I still haven't found a person that likes being plagiarized or someone that likes his patents or copyrights being infringed.
Pixel, the author of Cave Story, doesn't mind and actually seems to like people plagiarizing (The Underside), reverse engineering, and hacking his copyrighted material without asking for his permission. Just saying.

That's the nice thing of copyrights and Author's Rights, if he doesn't mind, the copyrights aren't infringed, because in his intention he doesn't care to protect his work in those particular cases, then again, I don't recall Cave Story being sold, does he sell any of his work?.

Johan_H · Post by **Johan_H** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:33 pm

Joe Camacho wrote:
Johan_H wrote:
Joe Camacho wrote:I still haven't found a person that likes being plagiarized or someone that likes his patents or copyrights being infringed.
Pixel, the author of Cave Story, doesn't mind and actually seems to like people plagiarizing (The Underside), reverse engineering, and hacking his copyrighted material without asking for his permission. Just saying.
That's the nice thing of copyrights and Author's Rights, if he doesn't mind, the copyrights aren't infringed

Doesn't that make what I quoted from you completely meaningless then, since it would only be possible to infringe his copyrights if he doesn't like people doing so?

I don't think he sells any of his works, why does that matter?

Joe Camacho · Post by **Joe Camacho** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:04 pm

Johan_H wrote:
Joe Camacho wrote:
Johan_H wrote:
Joe Camacho wrote:I still haven't found a person that likes being plagiarized or someone that likes his patents or copyrights being infringed.
Pixel, the author of Cave Story, doesn't mind and actually seems to like people plagiarizing (The Underside), reverse engineering, and hacking his copyrighted material without asking for his permission. Just saying.
That's the nice thing of copyrights and Author's Rights, if he doesn't mind, the copyrights aren't infringed
Doesn't that make what I quoted from you completely meaningless then, since it would only be possible to infringe his copyrights if he doesn't like people doing so?

I don't think he sells any of his works, why does that matter?

No, because you see, copyrights and Author's Rights put simply is a group of rights someone has around intelectual property (It's actually better to call them Author's Rights than copyrights, because copyrights usually refer to copying, while Author's Rights refer to any usage, including copying).

The author's will determines the grip of the copyright, while "legally" someone copies copyrighted material without his permission he *is* infringing the copyright, if the owner of said material doesn't excercise legal action, trying to protect his property or he actually endorses the activity, then it isn't being infringed, because there is an assumption that the creator doesn't feel his creation is being missused or used against his will.

Some might even go the extra mile and not even register their creations on the proper channels and let it be used by anyone.

Then again, maybe I wrote it wrong, what I wanted to say is that I have never met someone that doesn't like to let others use their creations, like being plagiarized or his copyrights being infringed.

I asked about him selling his works, as an aspect of the creator, usually when the creators don't profit from their creations, they care less if people use them, not always sadly.