bsnes v0.035 released

King Of Chaos · Post by **King Of Chaos** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:35 pm

Ugh. If that was added, please make it optional...

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:44 pm

Not that simple. I'd also have to set exclusive access to the device, eg go to true fullscreen. That means adding resolution / refresh rate / depth adjustment settings, having to incur large delays involved with some monitors when switching between windowed and fullscreen (where the screen is blank), not having a way to provide important statusbar messages at all, requiring an extra ~16ms input lag for the extra frame buffer, and it would all have to be Windows-specific.

Too many cons outweigh the benefits.

SmartOne · Post by **SmartOne** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:34 pm

Perfection has to be perfect.

The SNES didn't produce any tearing on a TV screen.

This a relatively high-level issue, no?

tetsuo55 · Post by **tetsuo55** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:53 pm

SmartOne wrote:Perfection has to be perfect.
The SNES didn't produce any tearing on a TV screen.

This a relatively high-level issue, no?

If you really want to simulate the TV you'll be stuck with windowed mode anyway because of the ultra-restrictive resolution choices

SmartOne · Post by **SmartOne** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:59 pm

It all depends on how you think about it. A TV scaled the image to make it a lot bigger. ScaleXx works in a somewhat similar way.

Perfect Vsync is absolutely necessary.

tetsuo55 · Post by **tetsuo55** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:14 pm

SmartOne wrote:It all depends on how you think about it. A TV scaled the image to make it a lot bigger. ScaleXx works in a somewhat similar way.

Perfect Vsync is absolutely necessary.

ScaleXx doesn't look like the tv image in the slightest

read this:
http://board.zsnes.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11928

SmartOne · Post by **SmartOne** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:40 pm

SmartOne wrote:ScaleXx works in a somewhat similar way.

It's the same basic idea. Scaling the image.

SmartOne wrote:It all depends on how you think about it.

It's the same basic idea, so there should be no tearing, given that bsnes aims to emulate how the SNES performs as accurately as possible. There's no tearing on a real SNES, no matter how you slice it.

tetsuo55 · Post by **tetsuo55** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:44 pm

Although i agree that there shouldn't be any tearing your missing the point.

Bsnes emulates the snes, not the TV.

Blargg has created an awesome filter than simulates\emulates the way NTSC images look on a CRT TV, in addition to that filter i have started work on a filter that actually simulates the way the lines where drawn to the screen.

together the NTSC filter and the CRT filter will give you the closest thing possible to TV simulation you're ever likely to get (unless someone writes a discrete tv simulator which would probably need a supercomputer to run)

scaleXx just makes the image bigger without it looking like crap

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:45 pm

SmartOne wrote:
SmartOne wrote:ScaleXx works in a somewhat similar way.
It's the same basic idea. Scaling the image.

Not really. A TV doesn't scale. It just draws what it's told to. Which, in the case of games, usually involves doubling up on one set of scanlines and leaving the other set blank.
Horizontal resolution, of course, doesn't exist. That's a figment of the computer's imagination.

gllt · Post by **gllt** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:46 pm

byuu wrote:Too many cons outweigh the benefits.

Okay! Was just a thought.

Thanks for answering!

byuu wrote:...and it would all have to be Windows-specific.

Thought about that. You're right. (will have *nix installed again soon, waiting on new SATA drive. Had to wipe earlier for PC emergency.)

SmartOne · Post by **SmartOne** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:54 pm

I don't see the purpose of NTSC and CRT filters. Just output to a TV. I don't care about simulating the TV. What I want is the unmucked video from the SNES with a few extra pixels thrown in to beef up the image so it looks presentable on a high resolution screen.

And this should be free of tearing.

henke37 · Post by **henke37** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:01 pm

And I want the image properly stretched and then decompiled so that it can be re assembled in a larger size while keeping the shapes. Yes, I am talking about the super eagle filters. And yes, I know it's not going to be in bsnes, due to licensing issues. I am just saying that sometimes you don't actually want a perfect copy of the real hardware, but something that you think is better. I admire the maniacs who goes to these lengths to perfectly emulate the expected experience.

tetsuo55 · Post by **tetsuo55** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:08 pm

SmartOne wrote:Just output to a TV.

I would really, but the bsnes+pc combo are incapable of outputting the correct frequencies to recreate the image the snes+crt had

ideally emulators like bsnes and regen would have accurate crt emulation by default and pure-direct as an option

gllt · Post by **gllt** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:14 pm

SmartOne wrote:I don't see the purpose of NTSC and CRT filters. Just output to a TV. I don't care about simulating the TV. What I want is the unmucked video from the SNES with a few extra pixels thrown in to beef up the image so it looks presentable on a high resolution screen.

And this should be free of tearing.

Its purpose isn't related to your goal, that's all. It's for the look of NTSC/CRT without well.. exactly that.

You want raw/slightly upscaled output to TV.
So graphics card with s-video or dvi-to-hdmi/component and the proper TV I suppose should be sufficient, in term with bsnes fullscreen.
If it tears, honestly I don't know much about tearing, obviously don't have problems with it, but explanation and recreation can help me figure it out.
If you mean where one piece of the frame is behind the rest, it's happened, but not in bsnes for me, I think.

(ran off to do things mid-post, wouldn't be surprised if there is already a response.)

SmartOne · Post by **SmartOne** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:25 pm

gllt wrote:Its purpose isn't related to your goal, that's all. It's for the look of NTSC/CRT without well.. exactly that.

Yes, that is the obvious.

Downgrading the image is purely for nostalgia and is simulating a TV, NOT the SNES.

And then you could argue that the SNES produces the composite or S-Video output, but I don't consider that process as part of what is necessary to emulate the SNES.

gllt · Post by **gllt** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:31 pm

gllt wrote:(ran off to do things mid-post, wouldn't be surprised if there is already a response.)

I was outmoded by better responses so I can't hold my argument.

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:56 pm

SmartOne wrote:
gllt wrote:Its purpose isn't related to your goal, that's all. It's for the look of NTSC/CRT without well.. exactly that.
Yes, that is the obvious.

Downgrading the image is purely for nostalgia and is simulating a TV, NOT the SNES.

It's simulating the intended output device.

There's plenty of examples out there of games that expected the video output to function a specific way.

Hell, I can point to games on some systems where the image EXISTS solely due to composite artifacting. Without emulation of the intended output device, it becomes a mess of vertical lines that vaguely imply the image.

SmartOne · Post by **SmartOne** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:28 pm

This all started with:

tetsuo55 wrote:
SmartOne wrote:Perfection has to be perfect.
The SNES didn't produce any tearing on a TV screen.

This a relatively high-level issue, no?
If you really want to simulate the TV you'll be stuck with windowed mode anyway because of the ultra-restrictive resolution choices

FirebrandX · Post by **FirebrandX** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:50 pm

Wait a minute, I'm not getting any tearing in fullscreen. Am I missing something here?

Edit: I did some scrolling tests and I see ZERO tearing in any of the lines. Am I just lucky or something?

Verdauga Greeneyes · Post by **Verdauga Greeneyes** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:05 am

FirebrandX wrote:Wait a minute, I'm not getting any tearing in fullscreen. Am I missing something here?

Edit: I did some scrolling tests and I see ZERO tearing in any of the lines. Am I just lucky or something?

If you don't get any tearing, then bsnes manages to finish updating the buffer in vblank for you, where it evidently doesn't for other people's PCs.. it's possible that you would still see tearing on some frames where bsnes just barely misses vblank. By the way, it would only be the top few lines, so you'd have to use a scale factor that fills your screen pretty much entirely (i.e. by using my build, if you're using a vertical screen resolution of >1120)

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:06 am

Firebrand: some video cards / drivers / APIs are better than others. For me, on Windows I get a solid tear at the top of the screen in 5x scale. It's basically because it takes longer to blit the image than you have time in vblank. It sucks, but as I've explained, there's really nothing I can do about it.

At least with Linux and Xv, I don't have the issue. Xv's buffering is apparently superior for whatever reason. And I guess some Windows users can get full scale, too.

FirebrandX · Post by **FirebrandX** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:08 am

Its probably because My monitor's max is 1680x1050, so I have to use 4xscale instead of 5x. I have been looking at the top lines for tearing and so far its been flawless. Everything scrolls perfectly smooth.

Edit: Just tried it at max scale, which for me was 1400x1050 with aspect correction and still everything scrolled perfectly smooth. Never tore at all and I tested it for several minutes. It may just be my graphic card can handle it, though my card is nothing to scream about since its only a 3850 HD.

FitzRoy · Post by **FitzRoy** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:09 am

I don't get anything either at 4x. Monitor isn't large enough to use 5x. When actual 1080p monitors come out, 4x will also be the max. So basically, this only afflicts 16/10 monitors with 1200 verticals... which are eventually going to be phased out for 16/9 panels... and it's only the top line... and getting rid of it can only be done on windows and destroying fullscreen menus... nah.

SmartOne · Post by **SmartOne** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:48 pm

Destroying fullscreen menus would be fine as long as you could still toggle back to windowed with F11 and use the menus there.

FirebrandX · Post by **FirebrandX** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Since the tearing only happens on specific computer setups, I'd say its not byuu's problem to deal with. You should just have to /envy those of us with no tearing

Seriously though, I quite rather like the menu system as it is (since it works great on my system)