ZSNES through best monitor

[zedrein]

I've recently gotten into the idea of playing SNES games through true RGB monitors, according gamesx.com there in no peer in picture quality.

However the frailty of the SNES console is well documented and they are only getting older...hence my wanting to play my emulators through good RGB monitors, like the Sony PVM and GVM series. My question is; have any of you played ZSNES or other emulators through monitors that are best for accurate picture quality? I'd love to hear your experiences. BTW, I HATE upscalers and video effects for hi-res monitors, I am trying to get true RGB display, so the games look as accurate and best as possible.

[Gil_Hamilton]

However the frailty of the SNES console is well documented

Is it?

hence my wanting to play my emulators through good RGB monitors, like the Sony PVM and GVM series. My question is; have any of you played ZSNES or other emulators through monitors that are best for accurate picture quality? I'd love to hear your experiences. BTW, I HATE upscalers and video effects for hi-res monitors, I am trying to get true RGB display, so the games look as accurate and best as possible.

Ummmm... any VGA, DVI, or HDMI output monitor will offer a "true RGB display." So basically... unless your PC is using a TV out...

And any CRT will even offer you an unscaled one, with the right emulator settings.



Accurate is a highly debatable subject. Many games assume the presence of composite, or even RF, output.
Don't get me wrong, I use s-video cables on my SNES(too lazy to make RGB ones), and think it's a system that usually benefits, but...





My experience is with fairly cheap consumer-level VGA monitors and an aged Mitsubishi presentation monitor.
But it's been that the games are reasonably fun with a good input device, though too sharp at times.

[grinvader]

However the frailty of the SNES console is well documented

Is it?

Mine got through 17 years of various abuse and is still kicking, heh.

Anyway, as I already said elsewhere: no filters + ultra bleeding edge screen == enjoy your pixels, haha

[zedrein]

However the frailty of the SNES console is well documented

Is it?

hence my wanting to play my emulators through good RGB monitors, like the Sony PVM and GVM series. My question is; have any of you played ZSNES or other emulators through monitors that are best for accurate picture quality? I'd love to hear your experiences. BTW, I HATE upscalers and video effects for hi-res monitors, I am trying to get true RGB display, so the games look as accurate and best as possible.

Ummmm... any VGA, DVI, or HDMI output monitor will offer a "true RGB display." So basically... unless your PC is using a TV out...

And any CRT will even offer you an unscaled one, with the right emulator settings.



Accurate is a highly debatable subject. Many games assume the presence of composite, or even RF, output.
Don't get me wrong, I use s-video cables on my SNES(too lazy to make RGB ones), and think it's a system that usually benefits, but...





My experience is with fairly cheap consumer-level VGA monitors and an aged Mitsubishi presentation monitor.
But it's been that the games are reasonably fun with a good input device, though too sharp at times.

Thanks?...Like I said, I am all too familiar with how SNES games look on higher resolution displays, badly, I've seen the screenshots of the SNES running on many RGB monitors, such as the Sony PVM series, and they look great. I basically just wanted to see if anyone has actually experimented with RGB monitors and emulation.

[blargg]

The S-Video output of a SNES is a big step above composite, and I doubt you'll see any difference between it and RGB. Have you tried a SNES connected to a CRT television via S-Video?

[Gil_Hamilton]

Thanks?...Like I said, I am all too familiar with how SNES games look on higher resolution displays, badly, I've seen the screenshots of the SNES running on many RGB monitors, such as the Sony PVM series, and they look great.

So you've seen a photograph of a monitor, on another monitor?

You DO know that's not an accurate representation, right?


Anyways, I assume by "higher resolution displays" you mean modern LCD/DLP/WTF HDTVs?
That's gonna vary greatly with model, though a high-resolution CRT bypasses the issue totally.

I basically just wanted to see if anyone has actually experimented with RGB monitors and emulation.

"... any VGA, DVI, or HDMI output monitor will offer a "true RGB display." So basically... unless your PC is using a TV out..." EVERYONE here has.

[paulguy]

The SNES doesn't look too awful on my LCD TV, as long as you don't get too close. There are some artifacts from the interlacing, since the TV doesn't pick up on the SNES's "progressive" signal. I, personally, don't see any issue with what an emulator outputs to a VGA or DVI monitor. Sure, some games need a bit of blur, that's what bilinear/interpolation option is for, or NTSC of your computer can do it and you prefer that.

[zedrein]

I guess I haven't been nearly specific enough. I know that a VGA monitor, whether it be LCD or CRT is technically a RGB display, but the RGB displays I am referring to are models like the Sony PVM/GVM series (640x480) or the popular Commodore 1084. I hate to sound like a dick, but I don't need a lecture about how I can simply use the tv out on my video card and plug it into my tv, yes it works, but it doesn't look very good. I too also own a nice set of S-video cables for my SNES and N64, they look good, but by virtually all accounts true RGB is better. So if none of you have ACTUALLY tried using one of the said monitors w/ a emulator, than thanks for your help, but I can get along without your know how.

[Gil_Hamilton]

I guess I haven't been nearly specific enough. I know that a VGA monitor, whether it be LCD or CRT is technically a RGB display, but the RGB displays I am referring to are models like the Sony PVM/GVM series (640x480) or the popular Commodore 1084.

The 1084 is ancient, and I doubt there's a single good-looking one left at this point.


The target you're looking for is still unclear.


Are you looking for professional monitors? In which case, Commodore needs to get out.

Are you looking for CRT monitors? In which case almost any VGA user is qualified to offer an opinion.

Are you looking for CRTs with low maximum resolutions? In which case you're being overly specific, as high-res CRTs handle low-res signals VERY well. And my Mitsubishi is as valid as a Commodore 1084.

Are you looking for interlaced RGB? In which case, you're screwed because the emulators won't do it.

Are you looking for experience with the SPECIFIC BRANDS NAMED? In which case, you need to quit using the word "like." And you're being grossly overspecific to the extent that no one here can offer you any help.

Are you looking for a target I missed? In which case, you need to clarify so we know what the hell you're going for.

I hate to sound like a dick, but I don't need a lecture about how I can simply use the tv out on my video card and plug it into my tv, yes it works, but it doesn't look very good.

Indeed. Which is why no one suggested it.

I too also own a nice set of S-video cables for my SNES and N64, they look good, but by virtually all accounts true RGB is better.

But it's not leaps and bounds better, not the way s-video is above composite or composite is above RF.
You're in the zone of diminishing returns.

So if none of you have ACTUALLY tried using one of the said monitors w/ a emulator, than thanks for your help, but I can get along without your know how.

I resubmit my experience with Screenzilla, a Mitsubishi 32" presentation monitor, sold under both the DiamondView and MegaView brands.
XC-3315, if I'm not mistaken(I haven't looked at the back, and my available net history IMPLIES it, but doesn't state it).

It's a low-resolution professional RGB CRT.


It's sweet, but a little too sharp.

[Truth Unknown]

Almost any emulator can display almost any game to almost exactly how the SNES would output to its render to its DAC. You can't get any better picture quality than that. The only issues would be how the Emulated SNES output will be scaled to the set computer resolution, the quality of the video card or display device (DAC and other internal components related to output) how well calibrated the display and/or video card.

[EricS]

I have these:


#1. Sony PVM 1251Q

http://www.recycledgoods.com/item/9592.aspx

#2 Mitsubishi XC3717C

http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/mi ... 3717c.html

http://www.ciao.com/Mitsubishi_MegaView ... __15478027


#3 Mitsubishi diamond scan 20M:

http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/mi ... 25atk.html

All are superb monitors that cost a small fortune back when they were made. You could easily mistake the RGB 480p of the Sony monitor for a HD image at first glance. They are in a league of their own when it comes to SD video. And the Megaview weighs more than your house.

I have an Nvidia Geforce FX 5200 in my computer, and I have installed a program called Soft 15khz to allow me to run low resolutions. I run Snes9x* and Nestopia in 256x240** and it looks just incredible.

Totally inaccurate of course, but it has the razor sharp, perfect color, fake look that I love so much. It really does have a surrealness of picture quality that can't be properly replicated on a VGA monitor.

Keep in mind that even though this is a low resolution, there are no NTSC artifacts, color bleeding, fringing, AND the dot pitch of these monitors are significantly finer than that of a TV, so the image is NOTHING LIKE PLAYING A REAL SNES OR NES. Not to shout, but I see people make this mistake all the time and I want add it to this post for posterities sake, in case someone stumbles on this thread with that idea in their mind. All current posters take no offense.

The best thing about these monitors is that you can display a 256x240 resolution and use the monitor controls to adjust the image to be appropriately stretched, so it will fill the screen properly without adding in any extra lines or blurriness due to scaling.

In Nestopia, I use the NTSC filter to emulate the NTSC artifacts I deem desirable to myself, namely those that would add pleasing colors or textures, like water in LOZ or acid in Metroid.
But I like more cartoony games like Super Mario Bros. in full fake-o-vision.

I would say that if you "HATE" scaling and filters, as you have said, any of these monitors is going to be good for you. Especially look for the ones with 15.75khz compatibility, since those will be able to the 256x240 I'm describing.

42 Mitsubishi AM-4201R 1280x1024 15.7-64 Khz 1.1 45-120 Hz
42 Mitsubishi MegaView Pro 42 (AM-4201R) 1280x1024 60 Hz 15.75; 20-64 Khz .96 45-120 Hz
37 Mitsubishi MegaView 37 (XC-3716C) 1280x1024 75 Hz 15-39.5 Khz .85 40-120 Hz
37 Mitsubishi MegaView 37 Plus (XC3717C) 1024x768 75Hz 15-61 Khz .85 40-120 Hz
37 Mitsubishi MegaView Pro 37 (XC-725C) 1280x1024 75 Hz 15.75; 24-64 Khz .85 40-120 Hz
37 Mitsubishi Diamond Scan 37 800x600 15-36 Khz 1.1 40-120 Hz
37 NEC MultiSync XP37 (XP3778A) 1280x1024 1524-78 Khz .85 40-120 Hz
37 NEC Multisync XM37 (XM3750A) 1024x768 1524-61 Khz .85 40-120 Hz
35 Mitsubishi AM-3501R 640x480 15-35 Khz 1.0 40-75 Hz
33 Mitsubishi MegaView 33 (XC-3315C) 800x600 60 Hz 15-38 Khz .83 40-120 Hz
33 Mitsubishi Diamond Scan 33 1024x768 15-38 Khz .83 40-120 Hz
29 Mitsubishi MegaView Pro 29 (XC-2930C) 1280x1024 75 Hz 15-82 Khz .79 40-120 Hz
29 Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 29 1280x1024 15-82 Khz .79 40-120 Hz
29 Mitsubishi MegaView 29 (AM-2725A) 640x480 66 Hz 15-39 Khz .76 45-100 Hz
29 NEC MultiSync XM29 (XM2950) 1024x768 15-50 Khz .75 40-100 Hz
29 ViewSonic ViewSonic 29 GA 1280x1024 60 Hz 15-64 Khz .75 45-160 Hz
28 Aydin Controls Spectrum Autosync 9026 800x600 15-38 Khz .74 50-90 Hz
27 Mitsubishi AM-2752A 640x480 15-39 Khz .76 45-100 Hz
27 Mitsubishi AM-2752 640x480 15-39 Khz .76 45-100 Hz
27 NEC MultiSync 4PG 1024x768 15-50 Khz 40-120 Hz
27 Sony PVM-2530/BS 640x200 15.734 Khz .73 59.9 Hz
26 Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 26M (HC3505SK) 800x600 15-38 Khz .31 45-90 Hz
24 Image Systems M24LV-65MAX 1280x1024 15-80 Khz NA 55-90 Hz
21 Image Systems C21LV-65MAX 1280x1024 15-80 Khz .29 55-90 Hz
21 Image Systems M21LMUMAX 2048x1536 15-65; 48-108 Khz NA 55-90 Hz
21 Image Systems M21LV-65MAX 1280x1024 15-80 Khz NA 55-90 Hz
21 Sony PVM-2030/BS 640x200 15.734 Khz .55 59.9 Hz
20 Aydin Controls Spectrum Autosync 9008 1024x768 15-38 Khz .28 40-90 Hz
20 Mitsubishi Diamond Scan 20LF 800x600 15-38 Khz .31 45-90 Hz
20 Mitsubishi Diamond Scan 20LP (HC3925L9ATK) 800x600 15-38 Khz .31 45-90 Hz
20 Mitsubishi Diamond Scan 20M (HC3925ATK) 800x600 15-38 Khz .31 45-90 Hz
20 Sony GVM-2020 800x600 60 Hz 15-36 Khz .55 50-100 Hz
20 Taxan Supervision 970 640x48060Hz 15-37 KHz .31 50-90 Hz
19 Barco CD-351 1024x768 15.5-23.5 Khz .32 50-60; 72-80 Hz
19 Conrac 7250 1280x1024 15.73-37 Khz .31 Hz
19 Microvitec 1019 800x600 15-36 Khz 40-100 Hz
17 Image Systems M17L-T 1600x1280 15-65/48-108 Khz NA 55-90 Hz
15 Electrohome C15 Series 15 1024x768 15-50 Khz .28 45-90 Hz
15 IDEK / Iiyama MF-5015 800x600 15.5-37 Khz 50-90 Hz
15 IDEK / Iiyama MF-5015A 800x600 60 Hz 15.5-38.5 Khz .31 50-90 Hz
15 Princeton Graphics Multiview II 640x870 15-70 Khz NA 75 Hz
14 AOC CM314 800x600 15-35 Khz .31 50-80 Hz
14 Commodore 1950 (AOC CM314) Up to 800x600 15-35 Khz .31 50-80 Hz
14 Darius TSM-1431 800x600 15.75-39 Khz 50-90 Hz
14 IDEK / Iiyama MF-5014 800x600 15.5-37 Khz 50-90 Hz
14 Magnavox CM1352 640x200 15.7 Khz .42 47-62 Hz
14 Mitsubishi Diamond Scan 14 (AUM-1381A) 800x600 60 Hz 15.6-36 Khz .31 45-90 Hz
14 Mitsubishi FA-3415 800x600 15.7-35.5 Khz .28 45-80 Hz
14 Nanao FlexScan 8060S 640x480 15-35 Khz Hz
14 Nanao FlexScan 9060S 800x600 15.5-38.5 Khz .28 50-90 Hz
14 NEC MultiSync II 800x600 56 Hz 15.5-35 Khz .31 50-80 Hz
14 Panasonic PanaSync C-1391 1024x768 (i) 15.5-36 Khz .31 40-80 Hz
14 Princeton Graphics 1400 (Utra 1400)~A Multisync 15-36.5 Khz 45-120 Hz
14 Relisys RE-5155 800x600 15.5-35 Khz Hz
14 Sony GVM-1310 800x600 60 hz 15-36 Khz .25 50-100 Hz
14 Sony PVM-1354Q 640x200 15.734 Khz .25 59.97 Hz
14 Sony PVM-1351Q 640x200 15.734 Khz .37 59.97 Hz
14 Sony GVM-1311Q 800x600 60 Hz 15-36 Khz .25 50-100 Hz
14 Sony PVM-1390 640x200 15.734 Khz .37 59.97 Hz
14 Taxan Supervision 770+LR 640x48060Hz 15-35 KHz .31 50-90 Hz
14 Taxan Supervision 770+ 640x48060Hz 15-35 KHz .31 50-90 Hz
14 Taxan Supervision 775 640x48060Hz 15-38 KHz .28 50-90 Hz
14 Wen JM143E 800x600 15.75/30-37 Khz .68 48-90 Hz
13 Aydin Controls SP 1499 1280x1024 15-40 Khz .31 40-90 Hz
13 NEC Multisync 3DS 800x600 56 Hz 15.8-38 Khz .28 50-90 Hz
13 Sony CPD-1303 800x600 15.75-35.5 Khz .37 50-100 Hz
13 Sony CPD-1402E 640x480 60 Hz 15-34 Khz .25 50-100 Hz
13 Sony CPD-1302 800x600 60 Hz 15-34 Khz .25 50-100 Hz
13 Sony CPD-1302A 800x600 60 Hz 15-36 Khz .25 50-100 Hz
10 Sony CPD-9000 640x240 15.75 Khz
list stolen from neo-geo.com

*zsnes has problems with 256x240. I don't wanna get into it because I don't know the specifics. Search the forum with the search term 256x240 and there's a thread about it.

**I'm aware that some snes games use res's over 256x240. I just change the res when I play those games. I also know that the SNES graphics are only 256x224, but that resolution isn't supported by Soft 15khz without adding custom modelines, so I just use 256x240 and stretch the black lines off the screen with monitor controls.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Totally inaccurate of course, but it has the razor sharp, perfect color, fake look that I love so much. It really does have a surrealness of picture quality that can't be properly replicated on a VGA monitor.

I see nothing preventing standard VGA monitors from doing it, excepting proper calibration.

Keep in mind that even though this is a low resolution, there are no NTSC artifacts, color bleeding, fringing, AND the dot pitch of these monitors are significantly finer than that of a TV, so the image is NOTHING LIKE PLAYING A REAL SNES OR NES.

Unless, of course, you hook a real SNES to one.

You can't get anything but composite(RF doesn't exist!) out of an NES without a GPU swap from a sacrificial PlayChoice or VS board, and that introduces other issues. Tragic, really.


Though some issues depend greatly on the TV and how well it was adjusted.

The best thing about these monitors is that you can display a 256x240 resolution and use the monitor controls to adjust the image to be appropriately stretched, so it will fill the screen properly without adding in any extra lines or blurriness due to scaling.

How's that different from any other CRT?

[EricS]

Totally inaccurate of course, but it has the razor sharp, perfect color, fake look that I love so much. It really does have a surrealness of picture quality that can't be properly replicated on a VGA monitor.

I see nothing preventing standard VGA monitors from doing it, excepting proper calibration.

Most VGA monitors can't do below 640x480. So the only way you could get an equivalent image is to put it into a window. To me, this does not carry the same feeling as playing in fullscreen mode at 256x240. You could try to resize with monitor controls, but I have never seen a monitor that could blow up a 256x240 window at 640x480 to the edge of the screen.

Keep in mind that even though this is a low resolution, there are no NTSC artifacts, color bleeding, fringing, AND the dot pitch of these monitors are significantly finer than that of a TV, so the image is NOTHING LIKE PLAYING A REAL SNES OR NES.

Unless, of course, you hook a real SNES to one.

Even then, these monitors were so expensive back in the day, that unless you are were really rich or an uber technical geek with a lucky streak, you didn't have one. So if somebody hooked an SNES up to one, they culd instantly be confronted with big differences from their expectations. And as I said, the dot pitch is closer to a pc monitor than a TV on most of these monitors, so the image will be sharper than usual, and that can make "flaws" in the image that were not originally apparent blatantly obvious.

You can't get anything but composite(RF doesn't exist!) out of an NES without a GPU swap from a sacrificial PlayChoice or VS board, and that introduces other issues. Tragic, really.

yep, it's a big sore spot over on the nestopia boards. People don't seem to get it when they are told that the NES didn't have any absolutely true colors. It's all dependent on NTSC. That's why I stress that the 256x240p image I run in Nestopia is fake fake fake.

The best thing about these monitors is that you can display a 256x240 resolution and use the monitor controls to adjust the image to be appropriately stretched, so it will fill the screen properly without adding in any extra lines or blurriness due to scaling.

How's that different from any other CRT?

As I said above, I haven't seen a VGA monitor that can stretch a 256x240 image to full screen with the monitor controls.

[grinvader]

As I said above, I haven't seen a VGA monitor that can stretch a 256x240 image to full screen with the monitor controls.

You're probably quite young then.

[EricS]

As I said above, I haven't seen a VGA monitor that can stretch a 256x240 image to full screen with the monitor controls.

You're probably quite young then.

I'm 24, not that it matters. I grew up using technology 15 years out of date.

My monitors age, however, is very important. I've tried dozens of brands and types over the years, with most dating from the late eighties to early nineties. I always tried to get the best I could out each one whenever I played an emulator, and not a single one was ever able to stretch that little box from the center of the screen to the edge.

[creaothceann]

Most VGA monitors can't do below 640x480.

You're not talking about CRTs, are you?

[gllt]

CRT, LCD, TFT, RGB, VGA, DVI, HDMI, CMYK, ALPHA TANGO ROGER OVER.

[EricS]

Most VGA monitors can't do below 640x480.

You're not talking about CRTs, are you?

Of course not.


Maybe I should be more specific, most VGA/SVGA/XGA monitors I have seen can't display a resolution less than 640x480.

Yes, some very old VGA monitors that come out with PC's back in the mid eighties could do 320x240. In my experience those monitors are harder to find than the ones listed above.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Totally inaccurate of course, but it has the razor sharp, perfect color, fake look that I love so much. It really does have a surrealness of picture quality that can't be properly replicated on a VGA monitor.

I see nothing preventing standard VGA monitors from doing it, excepting proper calibration.

Most VGA monitors can't do below 640x480.

I STRONGLY urge you download ZSNES DOS and look at some of the resolution options. Especially the default 320*240.

Just because Windows doesn't believe in resolutions lower than 640*480 doesn't mean they can't be used.


Now, I'd agree if you said most VGA monitors can't do interlaced resolutions, which is quite relevant to many vintage PCs. But it's not to running an SNES emulator.

So the only way you could get an equivalent image is to put it into a window.

Error: Underlying premise is faulty.

Keep in mind that even though this is a low resolution, there are no NTSC artifacts, color bleeding, fringing, AND the dot pitch of these monitors are significantly finer than that of a TV, so the image is NOTHING LIKE PLAYING A REAL SNES OR NES.

Unless, of course, you hook a real SNES to one.

Even then, these monitors were so expensive back in the day, that unless you are were really rich or an uber technical geek with a lucky streak, you didn't have one.

What does "back in the day" have to do with anything?
They can be acquired for a much lower price NOW. Hell, my own Screenzilla was FREE.

Or are you one of those crazies that thinks the SNES magically quit existing when the N64 came out?

So if somebody hooked an SNES up to one, they culd instantly be confronted with big differences from their expectations. And as I said, the dot pitch is closer to a pc monitor than a TV on most of these monitors, so the image will be sharper than usual, and that can make "flaws" in the image that were not originally apparent blatantly obvious.

The dot pitch is a lot less relevant than you assume, especially if the TV is properly adjusted so the color and (ESPECIALLY!) brightness controls aren't WAY overdriven.

The biggest difference is what you're outputting from the SNES. And this comes from someone who's used his SNES on composite-input TVs of the era, a modern TV with component inputs, an 80s composite monitor(intended for a 99/4a PC), and one of those magical high-end monitors that can't coexist with a real SNES.

Certainly the monitor is a bit clearer for a given feed. But the step from composite to s-video or RGB makes a MUCH bigger difference, and my Screenzilla isn't much sharper than my Wega. But Screenzilla has far better geometry.

You can't get anything but composite(RF doesn't exist!) out of an NES without a GPU swap from a sacrificial PlayChoice or VS board, and that introduces other issues. Tragic, really.

yep, it's a big sore spot over on the nestopia boards. People don't seem to get it when they are told that the NES didn't have any absolutely true colors. It's all dependent on NTSC. That's why I stress that the 256x240p image I run in Nestopia is fake fake fake.

Well, part of it is the chip package.
While it's true that you can't get RGB out of the NES, as I understand it the device DOES have chroma and luma signals.
BUT.... it's mixed into composite inside the chip package, so it's not an accessible set of signals like it is on the Ataris, where an s-video mod is a trivial effort despite the systems having similar principles for image generation.

The best thing about these monitors is that you can display a 256x240 resolution and use the monitor controls to adjust the image to be appropriately stretched, so it will fill the screen properly without adding in any extra lines or blurriness due to scaling.

How's that different from any other CRT?

As I said above, I haven't seen a VGA monitor that can stretch a 256x240 image to full screen with the monitor controls.

As I said above, that's due to faulty assumptions on your part.

Though.... looking up that Soft15KHz app... the most interesting resolution it offers is "31KHz

* 512 x 448 @ 60Hz "
This is PERFECT for S/NES emulation, and at a frequency that most monitors will play just fine with.
Straight pixel doubling avoids any scaling artifacts, and you have a resolution compatible with ALL SNES graphics modes.

[blargg]

You can't get anything but composite(RF doesn't exist!) out of an NES without a GPU swap from a sacrificial PlayChoice or VS board, and that introduces other issues. Tragic, really.

yep, it's a big sore spot over on the nestopia boards. People don't seem to get it when they are told that the NES didn't have any absolutely true colors. It's all dependent on NTSC. That's why I stress that the 256x240p image I run in Nestopia is fake fake fake.

Well, part of it is the chip package.
While it's true that you can't get RGB out of the NES, as I understand it the device DOES have chroma and luma signals.
BUT.... it's mixed into composite inside the chip package, so it's not an accessible set of signals like it is on the Ataris, where an s-video mod is a trivial effort despite the systems having similar principles for image generation.

The NES generates the composite waveform directly (and somewhat out of spec). It's just a square-wave-like signal that alternates between a small number of amplitudes. It may be possible to recover the exact pixels with some clever circuitry, though.

Though.... looking up that Soft15KHz app... the most interesting resolution it offers is "31KHz * 512 x 448 @ 60Hz "
This is PERFECT for S/NES emulation, and at a frequency that most monitors will play just fine with.
Straight pixel doubling avoids any scaling artifacts, and you have a resolution compatible with ALL SNES graphics modes.

Indeed, since a 60 Hz progressive NTSC image really does have every other scanline black. So double the NES/SNES image and black out every other scanline. And since you've got double the horizontal resolution, the NTSC filter has some resolution to work with.

[EricS]

Back in the day means for people who are new to using professional monitors who might be getting into emulation and are looking for something high quality. Someone like the OP. For people like you and me who have been using them for years it's nothing new, and while it was possible back then, and became easier as time went by, I would say less than 1% of all NES and SNES owners were connecting to such high quality monitors.

I'm basically talking to the people who haven't even touched an NES or SNES in years, people who might have crossed over from MAME or found a renewed interest after a remake of a game came out.

But anyway, don't worry about it, it not worth the time to discuss.

I would like to try ZSNES DOS right now, but I don't have dos installation handy. When I run zsnes dos in windows xp, it just rescales the 320x240 image back to 640x480. Or maybe it is monitor doing it? It's a Sony Trinitron GVM series. I'll work on it later.

I've actually been meaning to try running emu's in 120 hz mode on this monitor, as I have been told you can do the equivalent of 256x240 15khz and 60hz at 31khz and 120hz. Will the image result be the same? I suppose there will definitely be no visible screen flickering.

Now, my question is, if just about any old PC CRT monitor can do a resolution so close to the native SNES res, why don't more people take advantage of this? For convenience's sake? If I was going to spend 30+ hours playing through a SNES RPG, I think I would take the time to set up 320x240 if possible.

I am crazy, but that's beside the point. I play my SNES every day. It's hooked up to the same monitor as my emulation computer. The only reason I use emulators are to play rom hacks, translations, and games I don't own.

[Gil_Hamilton]

I would like to try ZSNES DOS right now, but I don't have dos installation handy. When I run zsnes dos in windows xp, it just rescales the 320x240 image back to 640x480. Or maybe it is monitor doing it? It's a Sony Trinitron GVM series. I'll work on it later.

Dunno. I did a quick test just to see the default.
I'm running XP on an LCD, with the video drivers set to aspect-correct rescale anything to the LCD's native resolution. So you can guess how much use THAT is.
I'm reasonably certain that under DOS, it outputs what it says it outputs, though.
...
Hmmm.... I DO have a 486 ready to go in the corner... just gotta hook it up to stuffs, and get an emu on it. Dunno if it can read CD-Rs, though, and my XP box doesn't have a floppy drive.

I've actually been meaning to try running emu's in 120 hz mode on this monitor, as I have been told you can do the equivalent of 256x240 15khz and 60hz at 31khz and 120hz. Will the image result be the same? I suppose there will definitely be no visible screen flickering.

Image should be the same, assuming the monitor handles the higher refresh rates well.

Flickering's not much of a problem with SNES games at 60hz anyways.

Now, my question is, if just about any old PC CRT monitor can do a resolution so close to the native SNES res, why don't more people take advantage of this? For convenience's sake? If I was going to spend 30+ hours playing through a SNES RPG, I think I would take the time to set up 320x240 if possible.

Well, 320*240's sub-optimal anyways, but...

It's no longer really a desirable goalpost, what with LCD monitors being all the rage now.
And I gather it's always been difficult to get low resolutions out of Windows95+, though that's outside my area of expertise.

Back in the day, of course, it was a convenience issue. Readjusting the monitor every time you came back from playing SNES games was a pain in the ass. Especially once control knobs fell out of fashion.

I am crazy, but that's beside the point. I play my SNES every day. It's hooked up to the same monitor as my emulation computer. The only reason I use emulators are to play rom hacks, translations, and games I don't own.

[zedrein]

PHENOMENAL post Eric, I thank you very much for the help. Ultimately my entire goal is to get a full sized true RGB image from not only my real consoles, but also my CPU console emulators.

If you ever happen to have time to get some literal screen shots of one of your monitors running these emulators as a visual aid, I'd be hugely appreciative.

Thanks again man.

[kode54]

When I run zsnes dos in windows xp, it just rescales the 320x240 image back to 640x480. Or maybe it is monitor doing it?

Actually, line doubling is a VGA feature, so your video card is doing it. Disabling line doubling would result in a 320x480 image. (For instance, the Windows 95/98/ME boot screen was 320x400.)