Hard Drive Education

[magitek369]

The drive that I'm currently using originally came out of an old external by Western Digital, which must be at least six years old by now. About a year ago some part of the case died and I feared the worst, but I was able to pull out the drive and hook it up using a USB connection. Anyway, because I do worry about the drive itself dying one of these days, I've got a few questions.

Is it better for the life of a drive to keep it running all day or to turn it off when it's not needed? What kind of average lifespan can I expect before I need to start considering a replacement? What can I do to prolong the life of a drive? Are there any signs that I should look for before a crash?

Finally, what's the best long-term solution for someone concerned with data loss?

Thanks in advance for all the advice.

[adventure_of_link]

best longterm solution if you're paranoid over data loss: backups.

also, I personally run my drives in my Linux box 24/7, no worries.

and, if a drive is about to go bad, it should start giving read/write errors when you run it in scandisk.

[funkyass]

how exactly do you run scandisk on a modern windows os?

[mytmyke]

how exactly do you run scandisk on a modern windows os?

For XP...not sure what OS your using. Go to My Computer, right click the drive you want to error check (usually c:), select properties. Select the tools tab, and click the "check now" button. Windows will check for errors on the volume on your next restart.

[funkyass]

that doesn't run scandisk.

[Gil_Hamilton]

I've got a few questions.

I've got a few answers!

Is it better for the life of a drive to keep it running all day or to turn it off when it's not needed?

Depends on your usage patterns.
Generally speaking, powerup/powerdown is the hardest single event any PC component will ever experience, and powerup is where you will most likely see a failure.

What kind of average lifespan can I expect before I need to start considering a replacement?

Depends on many many factors, including just plain luck.
I've had drives that lasted a year and drives that lasted a decade.

What can I do to prolong the life of a drive?

Use it less.
Keeping it cool helps too. Hard drives can get hot when in use, and it's not good for them. Many cases have a fan mount in front of the hard drive cage. Use it. You don't need an 80-decibel leaf vac, just something to move a bit of air so it's not stagnant around the drives.

Are there any signs that I should look for before a crash?

Sluggish response, funny noises(clicking sounds especially are a classic symptom of impending doom), read errors, write errors, SMART errors.

Finally, what's the best long-term solution for someone concerned with data lose?

You mean data LOSS?
Back that shit up. Buy a bluray burner or something.

[franpa]

or a raid array.

[grinvader]

RAID sucks for backups with current drives, franpa.


Anyway, i had a frankenstein ide drive work for roughly 5 extra years by keeping it powered. Every time i'd shut it down and switch it back on, i'd spend an increasing amount of time before it would talk to the bus right, and dma was impossible. Last boot I needed 50 minutes to make it "work".
So yeah. Minimal power fluctuation, minimal use, minimal heat, longer lifetime.

[magitek369]

I guess that I'm in pretty good shape then; I haven't noticed any impending signs of doom just yet, and I keep the drive running pretty much 24/7.

Regarding the heat issue though, like I said, I had to gut the drive out of its enclosure, so when I say that it's sitting on my desk, that's exactly what I mean. I've got to figure that keeping a drive open to the air must help it cool down, but are there any risks to keeping a drive exposed like this?

[Nightcrawler]

I swear by two things. 1.) Less Heat and 2.) Less usage. The two will equate to longer lifespan. My case has adequate cooling and temperatures are relatively close to ambient. I make sure all my drives power down after 10 minutes of inactivity. Then, I make sure my PC doesn't use the hard drive unless it has to. With adequate RAM, my hard drives are off 80% of the time I use the computer. It's mostly only on for program loading, gaming or something specialized that uses the hard drive.

I haven't had a personal hard drive failure ever. They last until I no longer have need for the computer. Though I typically only keep my computers for 5-7 years or so.

It would seem in my case, the advantages of less heat and less wear on the drive from it being off often far exceed any possible negative impact by more frequent power up and power down.

Theoretically, the drive should last longest if it remains cool at constant temperature and constantly powered in motion. However, I don't believe a hard drive constantly on and working can remain cool enough without more extreme cooling measures than the typical case setup. The difference in heat generation is very large.

It's also likely buying Enterprise grade hard drives (such as Western Digital RE series) will last longer. Better reliability testing and parts according to the manufacturers compared to consumer drives. I have always bought consumer level myself though.

[odditude]

bunch o' stuff

there is much wisdom here; heed it.

[Francis64]

I swear by two things. 1.) Less Heat and 2.) Less usage.

And obviously, avoid physical shocks and vibrations.

Don't place your computer case on the ground where it's likely to get accidentally hit by someone's feet, or by a vacuum cleaner for example.

And speak nicely to your hard drive:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/05 ... _engineer/

[magitek369]

Why is RAID not recommended?

[grinvader]

Because it wasn't designed for that. Also that.
Also current drives read error rate combined with amount of data means that a huge enough rebuild (say, like, one whole drive) has an incredible chance to FAIL, which will turn your whole array into a fat pile of poo. Fun times.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Regarding the heat issue though, like I said, I had to gut the drive out of its enclosure, so when I say that it's sitting on my desk, that's exactly what I mean. I've got to figure that keeping a drive open to the air must help it cool down, but are there any risks to keeping a drive exposed like this?

A. Actual air FLOW helps a lot more than just having it sitting out. There's air in your computer case too, but if it's not flowing, it's not moving heat(mild oversimplification).

And if you don't see any risks associated with a naked drive laying exposed on your desktop, you live a more organized life than me.

[magitek369]

Because it wasn't designed for that. Also that.
Also current drives read error rate combined with amount of data means that a huge enough rebuild (say, like, one whole drive) has an incredible chance to FAIL, which will turn your whole array into a fat pile of poo. Fun times.

What are your thoughts on solid-state drives? As their capacity increases and prices drops I imagine that they're become increasingly popular for backup purposes; though given their limited number of write cycles I doubt they're replace disk drives for everyday use anytime soon.

Then again, I've curious what the average lifetimes would be when you compare the two side-to-side.

A. Actual air FLOW helps a lot more than just having it sitting out. There's air in your computer case too, but if it's not flowing, it's not moving heat(mild oversimplification).

And if you don't see any risks associated with a naked drive laying exposed on your desktop, you live a more organized life than me.

Ha, well I do try; I've got more desk space than I really need, so there's very little clutter to get in the way. I keep the drive behind my laptop, so while it doesn't have a dedicated fan of its own, it does receive some air flow from my cooling pad. It's also not completely naked; I'm using what's left of the old enclosure as a dust guard. Kind of like wrapping a towel around your waist when you hop out of the shower I suppose. XD

[grinvader]

What are your thoughts on solid-state drives? As their capacity increases and prices drops I imagine that they're become increasingly popular for backup purposes; though given their limited number of write cycles I doubt they're replace disk drives for everyday use anytime soon.

I have no particular thoughts on them.

[odditude]

What are your thoughts on solid-state drives? As their capacity increases and prices drops I imagine that they're become increasingly popular for backup purposes; though given their limited number of write cycles I doubt they're replace disk drives for everyday use anytime soon.

go to anandtech and read some of his articles on the matter. i have no experience with SSDs yet myself.

[magitek369]

go to anandtech and read some of his articles on the matter. i have no experience with SSDs yet myself.

Sounds like the two will coexist for some time together. Solid-state drives have their obvious benefits in regard to data backup, but until their prices become more reasonable it would seem that we're stuck with hard disks for the time being.

[Gil_Hamilton]

go to anandtech and read some of his articles on the matter. i have no experience with SSDs yet myself.

Sounds like the two will coexist for some time together. Solid-state drives have their obvious benefits in regard to data backup, but until their prices become more reasonable it would seem that we're stuck with hard disks for the time being.

What possible benefit would SSDs have for backups?
Limited write cycles, low capacities, high price per megabyte... I'm not seeing an upside here.

[magitek369]

Limited write cycles, low capacities, high price per megabyte... I'm not seeing an upside here.

The first hard disk drives had low capacities and expensive price-tags too. Technology tends to improve with time.

Anyway, so far as the limited write cycle issue goes; obviously this make them ill-suited for use as a primary drive, where you've got programs writing new data constantly. However, this is much less of an issue in regards to data backup; assuming monthly backups, you're looking at a lifetime measured in years.

You have to compare the limitations of flash memory against the limitations of hard disks. As mechanical devices, hard disks are prone to failure, which is exactly why I started this discussion in the first place. Solid state drives may not be a viable alternative at present, but in the future I'd happily pay a little more for the security of not having to worry about a drive crash.

I'm not saying that solid state is going to replace hard disk anytime soon, but I'm sure that within the coming years we'll be seeing more of them as the technology grows.

[odditude]

What possible benefit would SSDs have for backups?
Limited write cycles, low capacities, high price per megabyte... I'm not seeing an upside here.

- shock resistance (good for a drive kept outside its proper home)
- reduced vulnerability to EM fields (see above)

they may not be sufficient reasons to offset the cost, but they ARE upsides.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Limited write cycles, low capacities, high price per megabyte... I'm not seeing an upside here.

The first hard disk drives had low capacities

Not for the time. And they weren't used for backups.

Anyway, so far as the limited write cycle issue goes; obviously this make them ill-suited for use as a primary drive, where you've got programs writing new data constantly. However, this is much less of an issue in regards to data backup; assuming monthly backups, you're looking at a lifetime measured in years.

You assume people buy new media for every backup instead of recycling old media.

You have to compare the limitations of flash memory against the limitations of hard disks. As mechanical devices, hard disks are prone to failure, which is exactly why I started this discussion in the first place.

You know what's MORE prone to failure with constant use? Magnetic tape.
Guess what the standard backup media is.

Reason is it's cheap, you don't have to take the entire drive assembly out every time you do a backup, and it's got a regular failure pattern so you can easily identify worn tapes and replace them before they fail.



You seem to be confusing backup with reliable main drive. They are different things.

[magitek369]

How Long Does a Flash Drive Last?

In other news, it would appear that flash media has a much higher write capacity than expected.

You assume people buy new media for every backup instead of recycling old media.

Surely you don't mean every "single" backup. I'd buy new media for the sole purpose of use as a backup, but of course I'm not going to buy a new drive, no matter how cheap, every single time I back up my data. That's just foolish.

Reason is it's cheap, you don't have to take the entire drive assembly out every time you do a backup, and it's got a regular failure pattern so you can easily identify worn tapes and replace them before they fail.

...And flash has a finite lifetime which can be taken into consideration as well. Hard disk crashes can be anticipated to an extent, but as mechanical devices they're still prone to random failure as well. More importantly though, even once you've reached the write limit on flash media, you can still read from it.

You seem to be confusing backup with reliable main drive. They are different things.

So it's wrong to want my backups to be reliable? I concede that solid state would make a primary drive given its limited write ability, but its reliability and durability, IMO, make it an excellent choice for my, "stuff I don't want to lose", folder.

[Deathlike2]

Solid State drivers are meant for lots of reading, so in terms of backup, I guess that's OK. However, the cost and the amount of space you get relative to a regular hard drive is the huge negative.

If you're really looking for a good backup drive, just buy a new regular hard drive that is known to be stable, even if it is a little older. You probably would need to get external casing and connections (eSATA or USB2/3), and that would probably suffice as cheap+OK backup, given modern tech. Of course, the even cheaper standby is the aging DVD burning...

There's no perfect solution... just good care and some luck is usually the best way to get the most at backing up data.