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Gil_Hamilton
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Gil_Hamilton »

You have to remember I'm a strong advocate of as close to original presentation as possible. I find MOST pattern filters to be completely ill-suited for general use. The best ones work great in a very limited set of situations. The bad ones look like crap in all situations.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Yuber »

In that case, you're better off using a real SNES or at least using an old CRT monitor with an emulator, because without filters SNES and other older games look awful on high-res LCD monitors. I can see practically every individual pixel unlike, say, a SNES connected to a good CRT via S-video. I'm guessing anything better than S-video for the SNES is expensive. I finally got an old CRT(for free, a family friend wanted to get rid of it) but I have yet to buy any good inputs. I only have composite for my old systems now but I'll buy some Component and S-video inputs very soon. Component for my PS2 and S-video for the SNES and DC.

I may try to get the DC hooked up via VGA, and if it's not too expensive I may get into RGB SCART connections, especially for the SNES. I have no experience with either and I need to research prices and everything. Even with shitty composite cables, the picture quality for all 3 systems is infinitely better than it was on my HD LCD. The PS2 is my most played system, and it should be easy to find some component cables for it. I hope I don't have any issues playing PS1 on my PS2 via component. I hear some TVs have problems scaling/displaying lower resolutions via component properly, but I hope the fact that I'm using a CRT with a max res of 480p helps.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Gil_Hamilton »

Yuber wrote:In that case, you're better off using a real SNES or at least using an old CRT monitor with an emulator, because without filters SNES and other older games look awful on high-res LCD monitors.

Believe me, I know.
I've found NTSC simulation at a suitably high resolution can generate an acceptable effect.

I can see practically every individual pixel unlike, say, a SNES connected to a good CRT via S-video.

I've debated going from s-vid to composite on my SNES before due to dithering effects. Fortunately, they're not that common on the SNES, with it's large color palettes.

I'm guessing anything better than S-video for the SNES is expensive.

The CABLE isn't very expensive.
Getting a DISPLAY that will take "interlaced" RGB in the US is. Most of what you want is old computer monitors or studio displays, both of which command premium values.
At least for any of the well-documented monitors like the Commodore units and the venerable NEC MultiSync line.

I finally got an old CRT(for free, a family friend wanted to get rid of it) but I have yet to buy any good inputs. I only have composite for my old systems now but I'll buy some Component and S-video inputs very soon. Component for my PS2 and S-video for the SNES and DC.

Recommendation: if you're doing PS1 via your PS2. take the (marginal) quality hit from going s-vid instead of component. Get a s-vid/composite cable instead. It makes it far easier to swap connections for PS1 gaming. PS1 should almost always be played through composite.

I may try to get the DC hooked up via VGA, and if it's not too expensive I may get into RGB SCART connections, especially for the SNES. I have no experience with either and I need to research prices and everything.

Display costs could be an issue.
One thing I regret when I put Screenzilla(a 32" Mitsubishi presentation monitor) out to pasture was that I never did get it an RGB feed out of my SNES. Or Dreamcast for that matter. I'm about 99% sure it would've taken SNES RGB.
The display was not healthy, and the CRT TV that replaced it generally provided a better image and component video ports were more useful in general, but... I miss Screenzilla sometimes.


Even with shitty composite cables, the picture quality for all 3 systems is infinitely better than it was on my HD LCD. The PS2 is my most played system, and it should be easy to find some component cables for it. I hope I don't have any issues playing PS1 on my PS2 via component. I hear some TVs have problems scaling/displaying lower resolutions via component properly, but I hope the fact that I'm using a CRT with a max res of 480p helps.

You won't have any scaling issues with an NTSC CRT fed with an analog source.
The only thing to worry about is the PS1's display issues with some TVs.
I believe it's due to disrespecting the US NTSC spec's black level, which can cause loss of sync in older displays(and it's why US NTSC offset the black level in the first place).

But this shouldn't be an issue on anything new enough to have component video ports.
Squall_Leonhart wrote:
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DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Yuber »

It's a flat, 27 inch Samsung CRT, non-HD but does support 480p(one component-out). For mere composite, the PQ is lovely, especially with the PS2 and DC. I think what I'll do regarding PS2 inputs is get both component and S-video inputs and if I have trouble playing PS1 games via component, I'll simply switch to S-video for PS1 games. I've always just used composite cables(I'm cheap) but I've seen youtube vids and comparison pics of SNES games comparing composite to S-video, and S-video looks MUCH clearer/less grainy with much better colors. Isn't it best to get an S-video input that doesn't also include the full R/Y/W composite connection? I don't want to end up buying cheap, shitty S-video cables. I also need a couple of new SNES controllers; my friends and I busted those babies up playing SF2 Turbo and MK2 when we were kids. Those ACSII turbo pads are really close to Nintendo quality, and my old one is my only useable SNES pad now. I'll get the name brand ones, because all those modern knockoffs are apparently cheap pieces of garbage much like those PlaySega "fightpads".

I likely won't fuck with VGA or RGB SCART just because it'll drain my wallet too quickly unless I come across some amazing bargain out of pure luck. I'm sticking with component and S-video, and hopefully I can get a fantastic PQ with both the SNES and PS2. The Dreamcast has the best overall IQ of all 3, and it looks beautiful even with plain composite; S-video will really make DC games look gorgeous, although not VGA level.

Also, a lot of people don't realize that HD CRTs still have the best picture quality out of pretty much anything(at least imo), namely those 250 pound 720p/1080i Sony WEGA CRTs. The weight is the main reason I didn't buy one of those, plus I'm not using any high-res stuff on my CRT. I've already got a 50 inch Sharp LCD to take care of the hi-res stuff, and around 90% of my gaming time is spent playing older games. There are kids now who consider the PS2 "retro" and it makes me feel old. Late 2000 doesn't seem like that long ago, and I was one of the people that stood in line on launch day. I was really into Tekken Tag at the time.

I really appreciate all the info. We're usually arguing about random shit but this time you were immensely helpful. Thanks man.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Gil_Hamilton »

Yuber wrote:I think what I'll do regarding PS2 inputs is get both component and S-video inputs and if I have trouble playing PS1 games via component, I'll simply switch to S-video for PS1 games.

PS1 actually looks UGLY in anything better than composite. Even games you'd expect to look nice.
I've been down this road myself. The system is just entirely too dependent on dithering and checkerboard transparency. Even in sprite/tile games it rears it's ugly head.

And the difference between s-video and component isn't near as large as the difference between composite and s-video or RF and composite.
The biggest thing is component is allowed to carry progressive and high-resolution signals.


I've yet to do any experimenting with my Genesis, so I'm not sure which way I'd swing with that one. I know there's a lot of artifacting tricks used in Genesis games to get around color and transparency limitations, though, which makes me lean towards composite output for models with decent TV encoders(one of my Gennies has a poor-quality encoder, and the resulting image has what can only be described as MPEG artifacts all over it).
Isn't it best to get an S-video input that doesn't also include the full R/Y/W composite connection?

Why would it be? The signals are all on different shielded lines, and the system outputs all the signals regardless of what cable you're using. And of course, in the case of a proprietary multi-out cable, you're going to have the stereo audio lines whether you want them or not.

Now, connecting them at the TV is a different story. Most TVs have both a composite AND s-video connector on their s-vid input, and warn you not to connect both at the same time. But nothing stops you from leaving that yellow RCA dangling until you want to blur out some dithering hell.



Also, a lot of people don't realize that HD CRTs still have the best picture quality out of pretty much anything(at least imo), namely those 250 pound 720p/1080i Sony WEGA CRTs. The weight is the main reason I didn't buy one of those, plus I'm not using any high-res stuff on my CRT.

There were smaller displays in the lines, actually. You don't HAVE to get the 32" monstrosities, though they were the sexiest, to be sure.
Also, the XBR955 and XBR960 have significant mechanical issues. The deflection yoke and aperture grill were rather lightweight and prone to damage on that tube.

Apparently the XBR800 line beat both of them in non-HD display quality, as well as being a 4:3 tube. Both advantages for non-HD game machines(yes, some PS2 games supported widescreen. No, we don't care. :P ).
And since it's NOT the "holy grail" 960, it can probably be found for less money.


My TV was free, so I won't complain too loudly. 32" interlace-only Toshiba, but the picture is solid and it has component inputs, which I grudgingly admit are more useful to me than RGB inputs on a pure NTSC television.


I really appreciate all the info. We're usually arguing about random shit but this time you were immensely helpful. Thanks man.

No prob. I am a font of information and strong opinions.
Squall_Leonhart wrote:
You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Yuber »

My Samsung TX-S2783 CRT(getting this baby for free was LUCKY) is native 4:3 as well and for pre-PS360, 4:3 is required as far as I'm concerned. I've heard some horror stories about this TV bowing and/or blurring rather quickly, but mine is from 2006 and the PQ is fantastic. Despite not supporting anything higher than 480p, it's nice to have real, legit blacks although my Sharp 50 inch LCD looks fucking gorgeous. For older games, nothing beats a CRT though. I am a bit concerned that if this TV breaks or starts rainbowing, it'll be really expensive to buy even an SD Sony CRT. I need a 27+ inch TV because I have bad vision even with glasses, otherwise I'd settle for something a bit smaller. This Samsung is around 120 pounds so it's not all that heavy, especially compared to those 250 pound HD Sony monsters. I hope to God my CRT doesn't break/start bowing because the PQ is great. I missed those scanlines & smooth scrolling.

I find it kind of weird that composite would look better than S-video for PS1 games, but you seem to have a ton of experience with different inputs so I'll take your word for it, although I'm still getting both S-video and component inputs for my PS2. I've heard of people playing PS1 games via component no problem, but maybe it looks like shit? I've only used composite for my SD systems, HDMI for my 360. I don't have a Genesis, and I was kinda jealous when SF2 SCE came out on the Genesis(a buddy had it) and felt more like the arcade version despite the hilariously bad voices. 3.58(without the SFX1/2 chips etc) VS a 7.67MHZ 68000 w/Z80 is a pretty big difference when it comes to raw speed; the SG was just slightly watered down arcade hardware from the late 80s, as is shown by its great ports of Strider and Ghouls. I'm not nearly tech-savvy enough to analyze specs, but despite the whole blast processing nonsense, the SG was very fast for a 1989 console, although everything was shit compared to the BEASTLY Neo-Geo. Nobody I knew owned one of those babies because it was $500+ for the system and $200+ PER GAME. On top of that, English carts were often horribly censored like Samurai Showdown even though the arcade version gives you the option of playing it 100% uncensored, same with the Metal Slug series.

Also, doesn't the quality of various inputs vary depending on your TV? I'm going to at least TRY S-video on the PS2, but what I'll likely do is use component for PS2 games for a cleaner image and composite for PS1 games. My SNES should look gorgeous via S-video though, because it already looks pretty good via composite albeit a bit grainy, which is typical for composite cables. Also, the reason I asked whether it's a good idea to buy S-video cables without all 3 comp. connections included is because I've heard a lot of the cables with the composite alternate video cable included are very cheaply made; I want the best quality although I only heard that from a few people on the internet, so I take it with a grain of salt and I simply want the best IQ possible.

Is your CRT curved or flat? Mine is flat, so I can see a game's image curve a bit while scrolling, although the scrolling itself is silky smooth. Definitely beats the blurry ass scrolling of my old 2007 Samsung LCD(720p, 32 inch). Only systems that support 720p+ should be connected to high-res LCDs/plasmas, imo, although I've heard low-res games still look good on those HD WEGAs. Suikoden 2 finally looks good; it looked AWFUL on my 2007 LCD.

Sorry for the ridiculously long post. My posts are long because they're pretty much just train of thought posts(also why I edit them a million times) and I'm naturally long winded.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Gil_Hamilton »

Yuber wrote:I find it kind of weird that composite would look better than S-video for PS1 games, but you seem to have a ton of experience with different inputs so I'll take your word for it, although I'm still getting both S-video and component inputs for my PS2. I've heard of people playing PS1 games via component no problem, but maybe it looks like shit?

That's the problem, sort of.
The PS1's visual quality is... not so good. The system design assumes you will be using composite video, and that all the dithering it is doing will be nicely hidden under the blur.
It's not that s-video or RGB or component is causing a problem, it's that they're TOO GOOD, and fail to mask the system's flaws like the design assumes will happen.

But you don't have to take my word for it. Try it out when you get your cables.

... although everything was shit compared to the BEASTLY Neo-Geo. Nobody I knew owned one of those babies because it was $500+ for the system and $200+ PER GAME. On top of that, English carts were often horribly censored like Samurai Showdown even though the arcade version gives you the option of playing it 100% uncensored, same with the Metal Slug series.

Technically, nothing was done to the game. It uses the exact same ROMs as the arcade carts. All changes are done by the game itself after the hardware tells it what version and region it's plugged into.

Apparently, there was a huge outcry when the home Samurai Shodown cart came out because when the system was in US region and home mode the game self-censored.
Cue burning ROMs to set home units to arcade mode, restoration of all content, and the birth of a console modification scene.

Also, doesn't the quality of various inputs vary depending on your TV?

Sooooort of?
As far as SD CRTs go, there's still a solid tier ranking, and one connection will always be superior to another, excepting fringe cases. Most of the advantage s-video and component have over composite is separating the chroma and luma signals. Component separates the two components of the chroma signal, but combining them is far less destructive than combining chroma and luma.

If they REALLY wanted to do a decent video interface, they would've done actual RGB instead. But RGB wasn't compatible with Macrovision, so no one was going to support it on DVD, even though Macrovision never stopped anyone and no one wanted to record DVDs to VHS in the first place.
They also wouldn't have used 3 RCA connectors, one of which color-matched the existing stereo audio standard. But what do I know? I'm just a hobbyist after all, and not an electrical engineer or marketing exec.


I'm going to at least TRY S-video on the PS2, but what I'll likely do is use component for PS2 games for a cleaner image and composite for PS1 games. My SNES should look gorgeous via S-video though, because it already looks pretty good via composite albeit a bit grainy, which is typical for composite cables.

Oh, the SNES is gorgeous over s-vid, no question.
Most systems benefit greatly from improved signal quality. PS1 is an unfortunate statistical outlier.

I can point to several systems with SOME games that assume composite video, but PS1 is the only machine I know of where EVERYTHING assumes composite video. Well, composite or RF, but... yeah.

Also, the reason I asked whether it's a good idea to buy S-video cables without all 3 comp. connections included is because I've heard a lot of the cables with the composite alternate video cable included are very cheaply made; I want the best quality although I only heard that from a few people on the internet, so I take it with a grain of salt and I simply want the best IQ possible.

As always, it depends. Some are, some aren't. Most are more than adequate to the task placed before them.

Is your CRT curved or flat? Mine is flat, so I can see a game's image curve a bit while scrolling, although the scrolling itself is silky smooth.

The old Mitsubishi was curved. The Toshiba I have now is flat. And yeah, that deformation at the edges(and especially at corners) is the big downside to a flat CRT. It wasn't feasible to vary the focus as the beam swept the screen, so the further from the center you get, the wonkier things become.

Only systems that support 720p+ should be connected to high-res LCDs/plasmas, imo, although I've heard low-res games still look good on those HD WEGAs.

A system that outputs a proper 480-line signal should look decent on a digital display, usually.
The problem with image quality usually comes as a result of the TV not understanding what's going on with the video signal trying to trick it into being a 240-line progressive scan display.
...
Well, that and really nasty video output gives the digitizers hells. The NES is particularly bad in that regard, and is a good compatibility test platform because of it.
About the only thing it does right is adhere to US NTSC black levels. And that isn't down to the hardware. NoA banned use of the bottom-most palette entries because they were all darker than black and could cause issues(though if I recall, some titles used them anyways, especially early on).

Sorry for the ridiculously long post. My posts are long because they're pretty much just train of thought posts(also why I edit them a million times) and I'm naturally long winded.

No worries. This gets to be a complicated subject anyways, so it's better to be thorough than brief.
Also, I tend to be rather loquacious myself, so it would be hypocritical to complain too loudly.
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You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Yuber »

So in layman's terms, S-video displays and separates the color signals much more effectively which results in a cleaner, sharper image? Component cables obviously allow for higher resolutions plus they separate video signals(the components) much more effectively than composite and are a step up from S-video. I'm out of my element when it comes to the specific, technical stuff because I've always used composite for older systems and HDMI for my 360. I'm just now starting to educate myself on higher quality inputs for my older systems. Regarding the NES, unfortunately mine broke years ago, and new NES consoles are expensive as shit. I could always buy one of the top loaders used, but I'll probably just stick to emulation for now. I mostly play SNES, PS1, DC and PS2 games these days when it comes to actual physical systems. I'm guessing the top-loading NES consoles have a lower failure rate, or at least I hope so. The "magic" blow on the cart/inside the NES suddenly stopped working around 1999. When I put a game in and turn my NES on it's always a mess of random pixels and an instant freeze.

Censored games on the NG and other consoles further prove how incredibly stupid region locking is, and it's especially offensive with NG games because they're so fucking expensive. I'd never pay $200+ for a heavily censored arcade port, even if everything else is flawless. Despite the region locking nonsense and censorship, it really is amazing how far SNK was able to push the NG with games like Last Blade 1-2, Mark of the Wolves, Samurai Showdown 5, KOF series, the gorgeous Metal slug games, etc. Some of those games have CPS3 levels of animation, and SNK games have some of the best pixel art of all time. MAME has really good NG emulation, but it's not 100%; I get slowdown in some of the higher end games. NeorageX is inferior as a whole, but it runs games like Last Blade 2 with zero slowdown.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Gil_Hamilton »

Yuber wrote:So in layman's terms, S-video displays and separates the color signals much more effectively which results in a cleaner, sharper image?

S-video carries all the color information on one line, and brightness information on the other.
This makes little sense when you consider how a color display works, but more sense when you consider how color BROADCASTING works, and why it's backwards-compatible with black&white TV.
Effectively, a color TV signal is a black&white signal and a color "overlay" signal.

RF video output takes your composite video output and your audio, then pumps it into a tiny TV station.
Composite video skips that final RF modulation stage, but the signal is still all combined and ready for broadcast.

S-video goes back a step farther, and brightness is carried on one wire pair, with the two components that make up the color signal carried on the other. As the standard is still based on broadcast formats, the two color components don't actually directly correspond with RGB.

Component separates the brightness signal and two color components all onto dedicated wires. Incidentally, THESE color components ARE directly related to RGB values, instead of broadcast encoding standards. It sends luma on the "green" wire, and the red and blue wires are red minus luma and blue minus luma. Green is inferred by subtracting portions of the reconstituted red and blue signals from the luma signal.

Component cables obviously allow for higher resolutions plus they separate video signals(the components) much more effectively than composite and are a step up from S-video. I'm out of my element when it comes to the specific, technical stuff because I've always used composite for older systems and HDMI for my 360. I'm just now starting to educate myself on higher quality inputs for my older systems.

Welcome down the rabbit hole. You will never understand all this shit. It's madness.

Regarding the NES, unfortunately mine broke years ago, and new NES consoles are expensive as shit. I could always buy one of the top loaders used, but I'll probably just stick to emulation for now. I mostly play SNES, PS1, DC and PS2 games these days when it comes to actual physical systems. I'm guessing the top-loading NES consoles have a lower failure rate, or at least I hope so. The "magic" blow on the cart/inside the NES suddenly stopped working around 1999. When I put a game in and turn my NES on it's always a mess of random pixels and an instant freeze.

US top loaders have a much worse video output than the "toasters".
If you want to get the best NES without modding, get an AV FamiCom and a US-J adapter. The AV FamiCom has very clean video, and being a FamiCom it still has the DE-15 expansion connector and the audio-in connections on the cart slot.
Also, you can play FamiCom games on it. :P


And the problem with the toaster is, and always has been, the cartridge connector.
It's a zero insertion force design, which is pretty cool aside from the fact that nothing is scraping debris and corrosion off the contacts like a "normal" connector. And it doesn't grip very tightly once engaged, so it doesn't cut through the debris AFTER you press the cartridge down either.

Blowing on it gets you a short-term gain, but in the long term just makes things worse, as the same moisture that improves your connection ALSO accelerates the corrosion that's causing the problem.

Piggybacking a Game Genie can alleviate the issues, temporarily. So can cleaning.
Long-term, the connector needs refurbishing or replacing. Unfortunately, the aftermarket replacement connectors are extremely tight, which can make it difficult to get cartridges out(I've heard tales of people needing pliers).

MY NES I used a pick to pry the contacts out on the cart slot. It is no longer ZIF, but it's not extremely tight. It's still not perfectly reliable, but it's a damn sight better than it used to be.
I may yet break down and sacrifice my Game Genie to make a reliable connector.


Censored games on the NG and other consoles further prove how incredibly stupid region locking is, and it's especially offensive with NG games because they're so fucking expensive. I'd never pay $200+ for a heavily censored arcade port, even if everything else is flawless.

Ah, but that's the beauty of it. The NeoGeo ISN'T region-locked.
Any cartridge will work in any console it fits into (with adapter, you can mix arcade and home carts freely, which is great for those arcade games that never had home releases or people that just want cheap games). The game selects it's configuration based on a byte in the system's boot ROM.
It is easy, nay, trivial, to burn a DIFFERENT boot ROM and install it in your NeoGeo.

Flip the bits to flag it as a J console and you get all the gore and... japanese text.
Flip it to US arcade instead and you get everything... unless it was a dumbfuck game that removed modes between the J arcade and the US arcade(I think a Magical Drop game or two was infamous for this).

Despite the region locking nonsense and censorship, it really is amazing how far SNK was able to push the NG with games like Last Blade 1-2, Mark of the Wolves, Samurai Showdown 5, KOF series, the gorgeous Metal slug games, etc. Some of those games have CPS3 levels of animation, and SNK games have some of the best pixel art of all time.

Size matters.
The NeoGeo had huge ROMs. When you have cartridges with the storage space of CDs, it becomes much easier to use a lot of large sprites.

That said, while it's amazing how far they took it, SNK should have euthanized the NeoGeo and put out something new. It didn't even support transparency, for crap's sake. Checkerboard shadows in a game from 2005 is an embarassment.
I consider the CPS2 and NeoGeo to be major contributors to the fall of the arcade. Their long dominance let home machines get "close enough" to the arcade experience. I won't say the two hardware platforms were solely responsible, but... they weren't helping.
Squall_Leonhart wrote:
You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by paulguy »

I don't think the carts were ever CD size. They'd say stuff like "800meg" but that's megabit. I don't know if any got to a gigabit or any higher than that. There was the ngcd though, but I don't know how big those images actually were.
Maybe these people were born without that part of their brain that lets you try different things to see if they work better. --Retsupurae
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Gil_Hamilton »

paulguy wrote:I don't think the carts were ever CD size. They'd say stuff like "800meg" but that's megabit. I don't know if any got to a gigabit or any higher than that. There was the ngcd though, but I don't know how big those images actually were.

Apparently the biggest NeoGeo game was just shy of a hundred megabytes.
I exaggerated for effect.
Squall_Leonhart wrote:
You have your 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s, 64s, and 128s(crash course in binary counting!). But no 1s.
DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Yuber »

8 megaBITS= around 1 megaBYTE. Check the size of games like CT(4 megs. 32 mbit) to do more precise conversions, although I just stick with 8 mbits=1 mbyte. I think the biggest SNES game was Tales of Phantasia, which was 48 mbits/6 megs due to all the badly compressed speech and the silly theme song. I'm guessing patches like the doctor L CT patch would work on a real SNES because it's 6 megs, the same size as TOP. As accurate as Chrono Trigger is on 9x, playing that patched version of CT on a real SNES via S-video would be awesome.

Thanks a lot for all the info Gil; you certainly understand much more of the technical details of how various inputs work than most people out there. I don't know any more than your "average" person and I simply use image and sound quality to judge inputs/cables. A VGA box(DC) and RGB SCART equipment would make my old systems look fantastic, but because I'm using a max 480p CRT, S-video(SNES, DC) and component(PS2) should be more than sufficient, although I'll keep composite cables around for PS1 games if I run into problems playing PS1 games on a component-connected PS2.

S-video separating the brightness signal makes sense IQ wise, because compared to composite the image usually looks much less washed out and the colors pop a lot more. I guess separating the brightness signal keeps the image from looking grainy. I use component to hook my PSP up to my TV and it looks absolutely beautiful considering they're blown up portable games, and my old 2007 cable box was component-based and its PQ wasn't much worse than my current HDMI-based box.

I've never actually used a real Neo-Geo outside of arcades, so I know nothing about setting up a real console. It's really cool that there are adapters that allow you to play the MVS carts, plus I know people use the universal BIOS on real systems as well, which allows you to change a shit ton of settings and use cheats to fuck around. When using emulators, I always play games in English with all the censorship turned off, either via the arcade setup menu or preferably the uni-BIOS. SNK's Engrish transrations are absorutery hirarious and makeu absorutery no sensu.

As for the NES, I'll consider getting an AV Famicom with a US adapter, but I'm pretty much okay just emulating NES games. I use Nestopia 1.43 or 1.41.1, and Kirby's Adventure has quite a few video bugs in it. Then again, I can just play the GBA remake although I prefer the original. Most of the other games I played as a kid run almost flawlessly though. I copied the specific model you recommended to a text file in case I decide to pull the trigger on it, but it's fairly expensive even used. There was a used one on amazon selling for $181; I bet new ones are at least $350-400, and the adapter you mentioned is $90 new and $65 used. Good point on the water from blowing into the NES or on to carts speeding corrosion up.

Thankfully, the SNES is a lot sturdier. I need a couple new controllers but the system itself works flawlessly; plastic yellowing is the only flaw, and it doesn't bug me at all since I know it's REALLY common. Those babies were built to last, and not having any type of disc drive obviously helps too. I think Nintendo should've used the Japanese design though; it's a lot sleeker and I really like the SF logo.

EDIT:
Gil_Hamilton wrote:Size matters.
The NeoGeo had huge ROMs. When you have cartridges with the storage space of CDs, it becomes much easier to use a lot of large sprites.

That said, while it's amazing how far they took it, SNK should have euthanized the NeoGeo and put out something new. It didn't even support transparency, for crap's sake. Checkerboard shadows in a game from 2005 is an embarassment.
I consider the CPS2 and NeoGeo to be major contributors to the fall of the arcade. Their long dominance let home machines get "close enough" to the arcade experience. I won't say the two hardware platforms were solely responsible, but... they weren't helping.


As much as I love the distinct look of NG games, you make a good point. I think online gaming would've killed arcades anyway, but not updating hardware certainly didn't help. I can't help but admire SNK for the GORGEOUS games they were able to create on 1989 hardware though, and a lot of NG games have such amazing animation that near-perfect ports of their higher-end games were nearly impossible on the PSX or even the Saturn(using a 1 meg RAM cart instead of a 4 MB cart on the Saturn was silly). The DC got some good ports, but they still weren't arcade-perfect and the blown up sprites were very grainy. Capcom and SNK likely clung to their old hardware for so long because it was infinitely cheaper than creating new hardware plus more expensive, higher-end games. I wish the CPS3 HW had had more games created for it, because it's an absolute beast when it comes to sprites. 3rd Strike looks much better than SF4, imo.
Last edited by Yuber on Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by paulguy »

The reason s-video looks better is that in composite video the luminance signal's bandwidth overlaps the chroma signal's frequency. That's why you see colorful blobs at intensity transitions. That fast transition contains high frequency components that interfere with the chroma signal. Modern comb filters can cope with it, but it's not perfect. The damage is pretty much already done.

I'm not really familiar with all the deep details, but there's something about the phase being reversed every other line or something that causes the "dot crawl". PAL doesn't have that problem due to some change in design, and I think it's chroma carrier is also higher up than NTSC's chroma carrier so there's less interference with it to begin with. A fun side effect is a lot of older computers and consoles that depended on oddball waveforms and whatnot to get the effect they want don't tend to work as well on PAL systems (Atari 2600).
Maybe these people were born without that part of their brain that lets you try different things to see if they work better. --Retsupurae
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Yuber »

Thanks for clarifying, and PAL gamers back then got fucked over BADLY. FF6 and CT were never released in PAL format(although they got Terranigma) and of course the games ran slower at 50fps than our 60fps NTSC games. It's very hard for me to play PAL version of SNES games because the timing is really off compared to smoother NTSC releases. 50fps fighting games especially are impossible for me to play effectively because precise timing is so important.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by paulguy »

It would make timing easier, you're just not used to it.
Maybe these people were born without that part of their brain that lets you try different things to see if they work better. --Retsupurae
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Gil_Hamilton »

Yuber wrote:8 megaBITS= around 1 megaBYTE.

Quite so.

Check the size of games like CT(4 megs. 32 mbit) to do more precise conversions, although I just stick with 8 mbits=1 mbyte.

How can you get more precise? I don't understand.

Thanks a lot for all the info Gil; you certainly understand much more of the technical details of how various inputs work than most people out there. I don't know any more than your "average" person and I simply use image and sound quality to judge inputs/cables.
I've spent a lot of time digging stuff up and trying to make sense of it all.
And occasionally making mistakes that must be rectified later. A bit embarassed to say that until recently I thought component worked in the same color space as composite and s-video. :(


I copied the specific model you recommended to a text file in case I decide to pull the trigger on it, but it's fairly expensive even used. There was a used one on amazon selling for $181; I bet new ones are at least $350-400, and the adapter you mentioned is $90 new and $65 used.

Yeah, that's down side to the NES. The later models are ever so slightly expensive.

The adapter should totally NOT be that bad, though.
It's a fully passive device, two card-edge connectors and a bit of signal routing. No capacitors, no resistors, no logic, NOTHING.
There's maybe a buck of components in one, and Nintendo gave them away for FREE in certain early NES cartridges(albeit not in a directly usable form for our purposes).

Someone is price-gouging, and you can find a better deal.


EDIT:
Gil_Hamilton wrote:Size matters.
The NeoGeo had huge ROMs. When you have cartridges with the storage space of CDs, it becomes much easier to use a lot of large sprites.

That said, while it's amazing how far they took it, SNK should have euthanized the NeoGeo and put out something new. It didn't even support transparency, for crap's sake. Checkerboard shadows in a game from 2005 is an embarassment.
I consider the CPS2 and NeoGeo to be major contributors to the fall of the arcade. Their long dominance let home machines get "close enough" to the arcade experience. I won't say the two hardware platforms were solely responsible, but... they weren't helping.


As much as I love the distinct look of NG games, you make a good point. I think online gaming would've killed arcades anyway, but not updating hardware certainly didn't help. I can't help but admire SNK for the GORGEOUS games they were able to create on 1989 hardware, and a lot of NG games have such amazing animation that near-perfect ports of their high end stuff were nearly impossible to make on the PSX or even the Saturn(if SNK had used a 4 meg RAM cart like Capcom, the ports would've been perfect).

SNK did some interesting stuff in the Saturn. King of Fighters 95 came with a ROM cart.
Which makes it a bit of a pain in the ass, since you suddenly have to load a cart AND a disk. But it reduces load times even further since you never have to populate the RAM.
I'd say it raised the cost of game production too, but SNK never seemed very concerned about cost.

The DC got some nice NG ports, but they still weren't arcade-perfect and the blown up sprites were grainy compared to the originals. Capcom and SNK likely clung to their old hardware for so long because it was infinitely cheaper than creating new hardware and higher-end games. I wish the CPS3 HW had had more games created for it, because it's an absolute beast when it comes to sprites. 3rd Strike looks much better than SF4, imo.

Oh, I know WHY they did it, but... complacency breeds weakness.

And the CPS3 was sabotaged internally by the CPS2 team. Figure THAT one out.
THAT'S why it hardly got any games, and was killed off in favor of more CPS2 projects.
And Capcom finally just jumped ship to Sega's NAOMI platform because why bother developing new hardware if your own programmers are going to ensure it never goes anywhere?
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Yuber »

Plus, Naomi equaled VERY easy DC ports although I bet they were difficult to port to the PS2 because of how hard it was to develop for. I mean, isn't the DC just Naomi hardware with less RAM? Other than the awful music and annoying announcers, games like CVS2 and MvC2 were the shit before the PS2 came out, and the DC ports were much better for obvious reasons since it's almost like comparing the NG AES and MVS, expect the DC didn't have 100% of the Naomi's power. I prefer my burned DC version of CVS2(and my real copy of MvC2) to the PS2 version(s) because despite being more powerful as a whole, most PS2 games, namely ports and multiplats, had TERRIBLE image quality. Square, Namco, 1st part devs etc were able to do some astounding stuff with the PS2 like the GoW games, ICO, Shadow of the Colossus and even the US launch Tekken Tag with its ultra smooth image quality. Hell, TTT is still one of the prettiest PS2 games out there imo and 4-5 were gorgeous as well.

Gil_Hamilton wrote:How can you get more precise? I don't understand.


Ah, I thought 8mbits=1mbyte may have been a good rule to go by but not absolutely 100% accurate but after looking it up, it's 100%. 1mbit=0.125 mbytes.

Gil_Hamilton wrote:Oh, I know WHY they did it, but... complacency breeds weakness.

And the CPS3 was sabotaged internally by the CPS2 team. Figure THAT one out.
THAT'S why it hardly got any games, and was killed off in favor of more CPS2 projects.
And Capcom finally just jumped ship to Sega's NAOMI platform because why bother developing new hardware if your own programmers are going to ensure it never goes anywhere?


That is pretty fucking ridiculous. I mean, I can understand being rivals and trying to one-up eachother, but sabotaging a team from the same company is just low. I expect low shit out of Capcom these days, but I guess it was always there and they simply didn't have the tools to be quite as exploitative and sleazy back then, but at least they were making fantastic games. I'll never understand their music choices for CvS2 and MvC2, though. I wonder how high the devs were when they decided really bad semi-jazzy pop music would be perfect for a superhero-based tag fighter with tons of flashiness and mayhem? I enjoy the theme-based music in XMvSF, MSHvSF, and MvC1 despite the CPS2's limited sound capabilities.

In CvS2, the Gouki and God Rugal themes are pretty decent, but the other tunes are anywhere from forgettable to obnoxious unless there's one or two I'm not thinking of.

Gil_Hamilton wrote:Yeah, that's down side to the NES. The later models are ever so slightly expensive.

The adapter should totally NOT be that bad, though.
It's a fully passive device, two card-edge connectors and a bit of signal routing. No capacitors, no resistors, no logic, NOTHING.
There's maybe a buck of components in one, and Nintendo gave them away for FREE in certain early NES cartridges(albeit not in a directly usable form for our purposes).

Someone is price-gouging, and you can find a better deal.


Don't worry, I wasn't thinking of buying that adapter, I just briefly looked it up on amazon to see what I'd be getting myself into. I may buy those 2 items in the future, but as of right now I don't think it's worth $200+ to buy a system that I'm satisfied enough emulating other than a few games that bug out when using Nestopia. Kirby is still playable, but there are noticeable graphical glitches on the sides of the screen. I'll try some different emus. If I DO replace my broken NES, I'll try and pick that model up if I can find a good price.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by kode54 »

Naomi didn't offer completely easy ports. For instance, a lot of Naomi games took advantage of the fact that the sound hardware has 8MB of RAM, while the Dreamcast only has 512KB.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Gil_Hamilton »

kode54 wrote:Naomi didn't offer completely easy ports. For instance, a lot of Naomi games took advantage of the fact that the sound hardware has 8MB of RAM, while the Dreamcast only has 512KB.

Also ROM carts were more abusable than GD-ROMs.
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DirectInput represents all bits, not just powers of 2 in an axis.


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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Yuber »

Doesn't the DC have 2mb audio RAM? The DC's sound is pretty damn good in the DC arcade ports I've played. For instance, the character voices in CvS2 are absolutely crystal clear and the rest of the sound, obnoxious announcer included, don't seem too badly compressed. I assume textures had to be toned down for the more demanding Naomi games, but the DC got some amazing arcade ports, especially for fighting game fans fan like me. The pirated version of Guilty Gear X is kinda butchered(missing and misplaced music), but that game still looks absolutely stunning today. Sprite-based games generally age a lot better than polygonal games. Weren't the DC, PS2, GC and Xbox kinda the polygonal equivalents of what the SNES and Genesis were for sprite-based games? That's just a wild guess/shot in the dark comparison, and the 1st Xbox was ridiculously powerful for a console when it first came out.

Your point still stands though because the DC is a weaker version of the Naomi hardware. VF4 on the Naomi 2 HW absolutely amazed me when it first came out(much like VF2 did) with its fantastic character models and especially those gorgeous textures. The PS2 version(s) are okay, but compared to the arcade versions graphically, the PS2 ports look like total ass, especially the texture and general image quality. The PS2 is much more powerful as a whole than the DC, but PS2 games usually have awful textures compared to DC games. Ports from DC to PS2 make the PS2's lack of video memory very apparent, although GGX PS2 is beautiful just like the DC version. Well animated, high-res sprites with good art design are absolutely stunning.

For 2d fighters, I'll take well done high-res sprites over stylized polygonal models any day. KOF13's sprites are really beautiful, and they make SF4, MvC3, and SFxT look like complete shit. I'm a big fan of beautiful pixel/sprite art as a whole. Last Blade 2 on the NG literally looks like a moving painting; it's stunning. CT and FF6 have some awesome pixel art as well.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by odditude »

Yuber wrote:Ah, I thought 8mbits=1mbyte may have been a good rule to go by but not absolutely 100% accurate but after looking it up, it's 100%.
by definition, one byte is 8 bits.
Yuber wrote:1mbit=0.125 mbytes.
that's like saying 1in=0.0833ft.

while technically correct, it makes my eye twitch.
Why yes, my shift key *IS* broken.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by kode54 »

Yeah, maybe it does have 2MB, I don't recall at the moment because I am away from my home computer.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by grinvader »

odditude wrote:
Yuber wrote:1mbit=0.125 mbytes.
that's like saying 1in=0.0833ft.

while technically correct, it makes my eye twitch.

Yours makes my nostrils twitch due to terribad rounding approximation.

;3
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by odditude »

grinvader wrote:
odditude wrote:
Yuber wrote:1mbit=0.125 mbytes.
that's like saying 1in=0.0833ft.

while technically correct, it makes my eye twitch.

Yours makes my nostrils twitch due to terribad rounding approximation.

;3

didn't feel like hunting for a way to display a repeat bar.

but it DID make you cringe. mission accomplished.
Why yes, my shift key *IS* broken.
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Re: ZSNES is not dead - Still in development

Post by Yuber »

That was copy/pasted from some random site while I was searching for the exact conversion, so it's not directly from me. Because of the file sizes of SNES games, 8mbits=1mbyte is generally faster to calculate, but 1byte=8bits is the simplest exact conversion as a whole, especially for NES games and below. I'm guessing companies started using bits as a marketing strategy to make games seem larger in size than they really were, but that's just a guess on my part. 32 mbits sound much bigger than 4 mbytes to people who don't know what those things are, and as a kid, 32 megabits sounded HUGE to me. When I first read about Tales of Phantasia in EGM or Gamepro(forgot) as a kid, 48 mbits made it sound like a massive game. It was an effective marketing tool.

It's kinda like calling LCDs with LED backlights LED TVs, although I know that's a weird comparison.
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