Question about R modes...

vigi_lante · Post by **vigi_lante** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:44 am

I thought R modes was about keeping an 1:1 ratio.

For example, if I use 640x480, it will show the unstreched snes display centered inside the screen (a little square box in the middle, since the game will be displayed at 256x224 on a 640x480 screen resolution).

But its obviously not what happens, since it does not retain the screen size ratio of the snes, no matter what resolution you choosed.

So, what exactly R modes does ?

Thanks.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:11 am

R modes use the base res of 256x224 (8:7). So in 640x480, you are effectively seeing 512x448.

Scale modes fit to whatever your current resolution happens to be.. the latest WIP (5/27/06) will fit to the screen, regardless of aspect ratio. In SVN, the default behavior has changed so that a 4:3 ratio is enforced (you can toggle it in the cfg file) but requires you have to minimum res of 320x240.

blackmyst · Post by **blackmyst** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:11 am

On the SNES, pixels aren't exactly square, they're rectangular, vertically squished. This is because of analogue stretching the SNES does on the TV. R modes in ZSNES are simply there to provide an even SNES pixel to monitor pixel ratio, and seeing how in most resolutions, pixels on a PC monitor are almost perfectly square, you'll end up with a somewhat horizontally squished image in R modes. S modes are there to display the image as it was on the SNES, stretched pixels and all.

vigi_lante · Post by **vigi_lante** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:24 am

On the SNES, pixels aren't exactly square, they're rectangular, vertically squished. This is because of analogue stretching the SNES does on the TV

They are not square for a reason: since the target display is a 4:3 TV, developers made pixels out of proportions on purpose, that would look right when displayed on a TV, since SNES resolution is not 4:3.

Well, I guess that some developers didnt even know that, and the result was games with wrong aspect ratio... : P

So, I think ZSNES is trying to correct what it is supossed to already be correct. (if you are using a 4:3 PC monitor, of course). You dont need to resize the picture because the real SNES works exactly like this - you have a game made with the wrong aspect ratio that will be displayed with the right aspect ratio on a 4:3 device.

Echoecho · Post by **Echoecho** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:59 am

Deathlike2 wrote:In SVN, the default behavior has changed so that a 4:3 ratio is enforced (you can toggle it in the cfg file) but requires you have to minimum res of 320x240.

Have I gotten the wrong version or is something happening with an old config? It's not working for me. I just installed the svn version. How can I enable this 4:3 ratio?

Post by **Nach** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Echoecho wrote:
Deathlike2 wrote:In SVN, the default behavior has changed so that a 4:3 ratio is enforced (you can toggle it in the cfg file) but requires you have to minimum res of 320x240.
Have I gotten the wrong version or is something happening with an old config? It's not working for me. I just installed the svn version. How can I enable this 4:3 ratio?

By using Windows.

Echoecho · Post by **Echoecho** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:44 pm

I'd rather eat rotten snails

blackmyst · Post by **blackmyst** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:40 pm

vigi_lante wrote:
On the SNES, pixels aren't exactly square, they're rectangular, vertically squished. This is because of analogue stretching the SNES does on the TV
They are not square for a reason: since the target display is a 4:3 TV, developers made pixels out of proportions on purpose, that would look right when displayed on a TV, since SNES resolution is not 4:3.

Well, I guess that some developers didnt even know that, and the result was games with wrong aspect ratio... : P

So, I think ZSNES is trying to correct what it is supossed to already be correct. (if you are using a 4:3 PC monitor, of course). You dont need to resize the picture because the real SNES works exactly like this - you have a game made with the wrong aspect ratio that will be displayed with the right aspect ratio on a 4:3 device.

Ehh, you're reading it wrong. I'm not saying Zsnes is trying to correct anything. Of course developers knew about the stretch. Like I said, the R modes are there for an even monitor pixel to SNES pixel ratio. By that I mean not the screen ratio (which should obviously be 4:3, and we have S modes for that) but I mean that in the sense that every SNES pixel is exactly 2 (or 1, or 3, or 4...etc) monitor pixels wide. I guess it's for sharpness. I don't use R modes, but the option should be there.

vigi_lante · Post by **vigi_lante** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:34 pm

I am very surprised that most snes games are not designed with 256x240 in mind. Its just crazy.

This is how the game is...

This is how it looks like on my TV (using 256x240 - Snes9x)

Another example...

I would like to know if this how it really looks on a real SNES.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:08 pm

What are you using to produce the 320x240 image anyways? Snes9x or what? Mention the version you are using as well. IIRC, Snes9x 1.43 had stretching that ignored the aspect ratio. Snes9x 1.5 corrects that I believe.

The 320x240 Super Metroid produced image looks horrible (the map and the font is a givaway)... it seems like if it were produced by Snes9x 1.43 anyways.

vigi_lante · Post by **vigi_lante** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:18 pm

I'm using Snes9x 1.5 (without any stretching or aspect ratio correction - just the picture as it is).

I use a image utility called Polyview. I take a picture from Snes9x. Then I resize it to 320x240 (without the option to retain aspect ratio).

I guess this is exactly how SNES works. You have a 256x224 picture, that will be resized to a 4:3 aspect ratio (of course, it looks much better than these pictures, since its more like an analog resize - but the aspect ratio is exactly the same).

It looks better if I use another resampling method, like Lanczos...

blackmyst · Post by **blackmyst** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:24 pm

Yes, that's what a SNES looks like. If you've never seen one though, does it matter to you?

I think it's mostly a case of practicality. The SNES still uses 8x8 tiles, regardless of the fact that those don't look square when stretched. It's a lot easier to build a memory-optimised circle with 8x8 tiles if it's point-symmetrical than to take stretching into account. The morph ball only looks round in the ZSNES shot, though you could hardly argue the way Samus looks is supposed to be one way or the other. In fact, I think she looks a bit too strangely tall and skinny in the ZSNES shot, but that's just me.

It's easier to take the ratio into account with non-mathematical shapes anyway.

Have a look at Ryu here: http://byuu.cinnamonpirate.com/bsnes_screenshots.php

Killer instinct is another example where everything just looks too tall and thin: http://byuu.cinnamonpirate.com/bsnes_sc ... hp?img=228

The round parts of the big robot in the megaman shot here are also adapted, zoom in a bit to get a better view: http://byuu.cinnamonpirate.com/bsnes_sc ... hp?img=198

The round shiney thing on the upper left screenshot here: http://byuu.cinnamonpirate.com/bsnes_sc ... hp?img=144

So, yeah. When you see something that's not right when stretched, it's lazy-ass artists and/or programmers. :p

Deathlike2 wrote:Resizing it via your method is incorrect... it sure doesn't look like that on my screen.

Idunno, taking a pic at the native SNES resolution and resizing it to anything 4:3 using any method whatsoever should always be correct.

Oh and here's some more examples...

In this one it should be more than obvious that the face of the girl on the upper right is adapted for stretching: http://byuu.cinnamonpirate.com/bsnes_sc ... hp?img=126

Oh, and of course....the Chrono Trigger title screen. The one on the top middle shows it especially well right here, look at the pendulum and the "C": http://byuu.cinnamonpirate.com/bsnes_sc ... php?img=96

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:49 pm

blackmyst wrote:Yes, that's what a SNES looks like. If you've never seen one though, does it matter to you?

That's why I'm not happy with vigi_lante's requests/complaints/lack of understanding comes in (not that I was doing much better I admit :-/). The fact that he has never seen an SNES in action..

So, yeah. When you see something that's not right when stretched, it's lazy-ass artists and/or programmers. :p

I haven't looked into TV technology too much.. but it makes sense in the end I guess. That NTSC filter does give me that classic TV feeling (though it is horrible for the ZSNES GUI IMO).

Echoecho · Post by **Echoecho** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:52 pm

The stretch pics that vigi_lante posted don't look like they're even anti-aliased, just rough stretch. Of course that will look bad.

If you really want to see how it's supposed to look like and don't have an snes, the closest you can do is set up the resolution 256x224 if your hardware can handle it - better yet on a TV through a tv card. Then set that on snes9x fullscreen without any kind of filters then play those games. Trying to make a point with snapshots displayed on a PC monitor is pointless. I noticed misshapen circles all the time on a real snes, but never paid much attention to it. That's a snes, and the unstretched screen in emulation on a PC monitor looks a hell of a lot more weird if you used to play snes. There is also an optical illusion which increases distortion when you're looking at a small thumbnail as opposed to a whole screen. That's the way the eyes work. Stuff also seems taller than it actually is because of the horizontal nature of the human eyes' field of vision.

blackmyst · Post by **blackmyst** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:58 pm

Well, there's nothing to argue about where the screenshot of the morph ball is concerned: it's exactly as many pixels tall as it is wide. Which, of course, it shouldn't be if you want to get a perfectly round object when stretched.

Some developers take it into account, some don't.

Echoecho · Post by **Echoecho** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:08 pm

Some snes games did take it into account. A lot of the later ones. I can't remember any specifically but I know I've seen them. I think it's the earlier games that didn't.

vigi_lante · Post by **vigi_lante** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:15 pm

I guess the situation was worse with NES games... : P

But its really odd that even with big games, like Super Metroid, Nintendo let Samus Morph Ball looks more like an oval ball. Its a really ugly effect.

blackmyst · Post by **blackmyst** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:19 pm

Echoecho wrote:Some snes games did take it into account. A lot of the later ones. I can't remember any specifically but I know I've seen them. I think it's the earlier games that didn't.

Well yeah, how about those examples I painstakingly sought out? :p

Directed at vigilante too. ;p

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:32 pm

Ugh, I was aiming to write a new post, and instead edited the wrong post.. my fault

In any case..

More likely than not, there IS a difference between Arcade monitors and TVs and that when you take them into consideration.. you shouldn't expect that the SNES was developed for an Arcade monitor and vice versa...

The second Mega Man X pic you posed looks awfully wrong (look at the energy bar). If you actually saw what the original system produced, it does NOT have a fuzzy energy bar.

There was one reference to the Mega Drive/Genesis.. and I suspect the Genesis does a similar thing the SNES does when it comes to the image on the screen.

The black vertical lines you were referring to is used INTENTIONALLY BY THE DEVELOPER in certain games. I'm not sure if it is TV specific.. but it was INTENTIONALLY DONE BY THE DEVELOPER.

For example, FF3's second logo sequence takes up the WHOLE SCREEN. The intro sequence following that has black vertical bars as you have mentioned... that was what the developer did.. it has NOTHING to do with the TV.

Also, since you haven't seen the SNES for about 10 years, vigi_lante, would you PLEASE stop guessing out of your ass?

Echoecho · Post by **Echoecho** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:42 pm

Most arcade monitors were nevertheless the same aspect ratio as a TV, or so close it was negligible. I know those 384x224 monitors are.

I'm going to look for some of the snes games I was talking about.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:48 pm

384x224 = 12:7 ratio.. that's not exactly close to 4:3

blackmyst · Post by **blackmyst** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:48 pm

Echoecho wrote:Most arcade monitors were nevertheless the same aspect ratio as a TV, or so close it was negligible. I know those 384x224 monitors are.

I'm going to look for some of the snes games I was talking about.

I just gave you like ten examples! I feel so ignored.

/slits wrists

vigi_lante · Post by **vigi_lante** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:51 pm

More likely than not, there IS a difference between Arcade monitors and TVs and that when you take them into consideration.. you shouldn't expect that the SNES was developed for an Arcade monitor and vice versa...

No. In this case, it doesnt matter...

Arcade monitors are 4:3 display devices, like a TV.

The black vertical lines you were referring to is used INTENTIONALLY BY THE DEVELOPER in certain games. I'm not sure if it is TV specific.. but it was INTENTIONALLY DONE BY THE DEVELOPER.

For example, FF3's second logo sequence takes up the WHOLE SCREEN. The intro sequence following that has black vertical bars as you have mentioned... that was what the developer did.. it has NOTHING to do with the TV.

What are you talking about ? I said nothing about this kind of black vertical lines.

I only told that when you play a SNES game at 320x240 (without stretch) on a emulator, you have two vertical black bars, since the SNES horizontal resolution is lower.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:53 pm

The black vertical lines you were referring to is used INTENTIONALLY BY THE DEVELOPER in certain games. I'm not sure if it is TV specific.. but it was INTENTIONALLY DONE BY THE DEVELOPER.

For example, FF3's second logo sequence takes up the WHOLE SCREEN. The intro sequence following that has black vertical bars as you have mentioned... that was what the developer did.. it has NOTHING to do with the TV.
What are you talking about ? I said nothing about this kind of black vertical lines.

I only told that when you play a SNES game at 320x240 (without stretch) on a emulator, you have two vertical black bars, since the SNES horizontal resolution is lower.

That's why you're supposed to use Stretch.. to at least do what a real TV does in the first place.

vigi_lante · Post by **vigi_lante** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:53 pm

384x224 = 12:7 ratio.. that's not exactly close to 4:3

Oh god...and I'm the one guessing out of my ass.

384x224 is only the game resolution. It doesnt necessary means that the aspect ratio of the target display (arcade monitor) need to be the same.

That's why you're supposed to use Stretch.. to at least do what a real TV does in the first place.

I know, I know...I'm just talking about my case. If you play on a TV, at low-res, stretch looks horrible.