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Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:38 pm

corronchilejano wrote:Or maybe they're just dicks and included lossles audio for some reason.

What's wrong with lossless audio?

Panzer88 · Post by **Panzer88** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:05 pm

I knew the next KOF was going to be hi res hand drawn, but it's cool to finally be able to see it in action.

what is even greater is that, the gameplay of KOF games is so great also, my fav 2D fighter.

sweener2001 · Post by **sweener2001** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:07 pm

it does look pretty hot.

but i can also see where they were going when capcom said that they've done all they can do with 2D.

Panzer88 · Post by **Panzer88** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:09 pm

hmm, I don't know about THAT, I think they were just saying that to calm the fans, I don't even know if KOF is to the level of some animes that have currently been made.

Johan_H · Post by **Johan_H** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:13 pm

Gil_Hamilton wrote:
corronchilejano wrote:Or maybe they're just dicks and included lossles audio for some reason.
What's wrong with lossless audio?

He means uncompressed probably.

corronchilejano · Post by **corronchilejano** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:54 pm

Johan_H wrote:
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
corronchilejano wrote:Or maybe they're just dicks and included lossles audio for some reason.
What's wrong with lossless audio?
He means uncompressed probably.

Correct. Also, with the power of the PS3. why are people still making FMVs? A PS3 that gets connected to a Lego box should take over the world.

Panzer88 · Post by **Panzer88** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:08 pm

for convienience and money I think if you can believe it. I remember when reading about the use of them in Lost Odyssey, it was said they used FMV not because the 360 couldn't accomplish what they wanted, but it was easier to have someone make the vids seperate from the game engine, and have artists that are used to making CG movies with their tools to it that way.

Post by **pagefault** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:11 am

It's just marketing FUD. Watch the people who rip these games get it down to 1 or 2 DVDs.

sweener2001 · Post by **sweener2001** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:45 am

Panzer88 wrote:hmm, I don't know about THAT, I think they were just saying that to calm the fans, I don't even know if KOF is to the level of some animes that have currently been made.

like?

and how does that even begin to explain that 2D gaming can be better?

Panzer88 · Post by **Panzer88** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:04 am

well it proves that the visual animation quality has not yet reached it's apex, I would have thought that'd be obvious.

sweener2001 · Post by **sweener2001** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:13 am

except that a show and a game are quite different.

corronchilejano · Post by **corronchilejano** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:14 am

I think 2D by adding DETAILED graphics has found it's peak. When u can't see any pixels, you know there's nothing else to do there.

On the other hand, 2D with nifty FX has still a long way to go.

Panzer88 · Post by **Panzer88** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:33 am

corronchilejano wrote:I think 2D by adding DETAILED graphics has found it's peak. When u can't see any pixels, you know there's nothing else to do there.

On the other hand, 2D with nifty FX has still a long way to go.

then there is frames of animation and overall fluidity etc. (adding a greater diversity of animation so you don't see the same animation all the time, have a walking animation that has more variety etc) and (not in a fighting game, but still) scaling and rotation. etc. for unique effects.

and like you already mentioned, more use and a greater variety of transparency, refraction/ 2D distortion, particle effects, and other kinds of lighting and darkening effects.

also, they haven't reached their true potential until they are using vector graphics instead of bitmat sprites so you can scale infinitely without loss of quality.

Johan_H · Post by **Johan_H** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:33 am

Panzer88 wrote:then there is frames of animation and overall fluidity etc. (adding a greater diversity of animation so you don't see the same animation all the time, have a walking animation that has more variety etc)

All of that sounds like it would require an incredible amount of man-hours if you want it to look good, any developer out to make money would just use a 3D engine instead to achieve that, I think. Or worse, render 2D sprites from 3D models.

IMO the aesthetic advantage 2D has over 3D lies mostly in consistency, readability and the artist's control over timing and every frame of animation (and in the case of hand pixeled 2D, making the sprites and backgrounds look as good and detailed as they absolutely can for a given resolution), leave fluidity and variety to 3D I say.

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:12 am

Johan_H wrote:
Panzer88 wrote:then there is frames of animation and overall fluidity etc. (adding a greater diversity of animation so you don't see the same animation all the time, have a walking animation that has more variety etc)
All of that sounds like it would require an incredible amount of man-hours if you want it to look good, any developer out to make money would just use a 3D engine instead to achieve that, I think. Or worse, render 2D sprites from 3D models.

IMO the aesthetic advantage 2D has over 3D lies mostly in consistency, readability and the artist's control over timing and every frame of animation (and in the case of hand pixeled 2D, making the sprites and backgrounds look as good and detailed as they absolutely can for a given resolution), leave fluidity and variety to 3D I say.

Well, for a long time it was down to sprite/tile just being more mature than polygon.
It's only in the last generation or two that they've really become comparable.

I.S.T. · Post by **I.S.T.** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:23 am

corronchilejano wrote:
Johan_H wrote:
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
corronchilejano wrote:Or maybe they're just dicks and included lossles audio for some reason.
What's wrong with lossless audio?
He means uncompressed probably.
Correct. Also, with the power of the PS3. why are people still making FMVs? A PS3 that gets connected to a Lego box should take over the world.

Uh... It's still very possible to make FMVs that look tons better than any PS3 game. Load up any version of Marvel: Ultimate Alliance for a recent example of that.

Johan_H · Post by **Johan_H** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:47 am

Gil_Hamilton wrote:Well, for a long time it was down to sprite/tile just being more mature than polygon.
It's only in the last generation or two that they've really become comparable.

Sure, but that doesn't change my opinion on the matter.

Post #666. I dedicate it to Lord Satan, liberator of the humans, our master and savior. Praised be his name.

Post by **grinvader** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:45 pm

What 2d could be trying for now is close to what the peeps over at...*cough* Tinklebell *cough*
... are aiming at.
Especially the latest instalment. *cough*

4.5GB for less than an hour, but holy shit it's the best 2d engine I ever saw with this pair of eyes (the other is still recovering from the massive reality check failure).
Surely other zboar/d/ members will agree on that.

corronchilejano · Post by **corronchilejano** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:12 am

I gotta say, some people take some stuff VERY seriously. Tinklebell is one of those things that make you feel shame on downloading hentai to jerk off, it has an incredible quality I'd love to see in another place.

Post by **odditude** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:16 am

corronchilejano wrote:Tinklebell is one of those things that make you feel shame on downloading hentai to jerk off

Uhm, since when did that require an outside influence?

Rashidi · Post by **Rashidi** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:16 am

Gil_Hamilton wrote:
corronchilejano wrote:Or maybe they're just dicks and included lossles audio for some reason.
What's wrong with lossless audio?

why the need for loss-less audio?
are they planing to insert some sublimal messages to it? (send more money; buy more game from us; we're the best game maker there-is the other company just suck tremendously; and so on...)
i guess with lossy audio compression, those subimal messages would probably lost....

mudlord · Post by **mudlord** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:48 am

why the need for loss-less audio?

Because complaining about space when you have around 50GB to play with is utter bullshit. And lossless audio won't add any extra load, because hey, we are talking the Cell here, and I doubt decoding lossless audio will be a issue on that CPU...

And doing uncompressed audio when lossless is just fine is...quite insane.

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:21 am

Rashidi wrote:
Gil_Hamilton wrote:
corronchilejano wrote:Or maybe they're just dicks and included lossles audio for some reason.
What's wrong with lossless audio?
why the need for loss-less audio?

Why the need for higher resolution, surround sound, advanced lighting effects, anti-aliasing routines, or any of a million other features that add nothing to the actual gameplay?

Lossless audio sounds better. That would be why.
It isn't a sign of complete asshole developers, just ones that are giving the ear as much credit as the eye for a change.

corronchilejano · Post by **corronchilejano** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:22 pm

Gil_Hamilton wrote:Lossless audio sounds better. That would be why.

1. I was joking about the losless, meaning that they would use uncompressed audio.
2. You can use some pretty good audio compression with minor quality loss (one that the human ear CANNOT HEAR).
3. Anti-alias? Lighting effects? When do those add up to the ammount of space a game takes? Say FMVs and I'll believe you, and still, such high res FMVs take an insane ammount of space. This is the part I think would make stuff explode.

I.S.T. · Post by **I.S.T.** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:23 pm

corronchilejano wrote:
Gil_Hamilton wrote:Lossless audio sounds better. That would be why.
1. I was joking about the losless, meaning that they would use uncompressed audio.
2. You can use some pretty good audio compression with minor quality loss (one that the human ear CANNOT HEAR).
3. Anti-alias? Lighting effects? When do those add up to the ammount of space a game takes? Say FMVs and I'll believe you, and still, such high res FMVs take an insane ammount of space. This is the part I think would make stuff explode.

2 is a fallacy. You can train a motherfucker(or he can train himself) to hear the differences. Sound compression is not that good yet.

Supposedly, LAME uses that type of psycho acoustic model when compressing(Might have my terms mixed up a bit here... Been a while since I read this stuff, and I am horrible at remembering names for things.), and we all know MP3s are easily beaten by many, many codecs.