State of SNES Emulation - 2010

[magitek369]

I stand by my point.

[grinvader]

further smartass

JUST TAKE A CAKE SLICE YOU... YOU...


DOUBLE SMARTASS




p.s. the caek is a lie

[Gil_Hamilton]

As far as built like tanks... for every VCS and SNES I can point to a NES or 5200.
Hardware durability has a lot more to do with individual system design than it really does era or company.

Not to be a smartass, but I feel like the following applies here.

Yeah, and MS will repair that for free.
...
Actually, Nintendo's modern customer service is directly attributable to that god-damn ZIF connector and the swarms of angry customers after their NESes stopped working. The blinking screen problems WERE their crimson Pacman.
Only difference is Microsoft will send you a box to mail the 360 back in and pay postage both ways, while Nintendo would have made you drive to their nearest repair center back in the day.
So yeah, A = B there.


Now take the rose-colored glasses off, quit being a retarded ass, and acknowledge the NES is a horrible design that fails at the drop of a hat.
The fact that it is an owner-repairable failure is of no consequence because A. most people don't fix something when they can throw it out and bitch about it, and B. it never should've happened in the first place.




And actually, I should probably pull the VCS off my list of durable and reliable systems, since it's so easy to kill the power brick by connecting it to the wall before the system, or disconnecting it from the system while it's connected to the wall.

[magitek369]

My point is that, as a general rule, it seems that the more complex you make a system, the more likely you are that one of those components will fail. Obviously quality control will always be an issue, but the simpler you make something the harder it is to break.

I'm curious though; does anyone know the failure rates for consoles pre-modern era? I haven't been able to find anything in my searches, so it's possible that data just wasn't collected back then.

As an aside though, the better question might be why consoles fail in the first place. I'm sure that the 360's staggering failure rate can be attributed at least partly to stupid kinds who don't know how to place the damn thing properly. Really, it overheated when you stuck it between your TV and the wall? Honestly.

[Gil_Hamilton]

My point is that, as a general rule, it seems that the more complex you make a system, the more likely you are that one of those components will fail. Obviously quality control will always be an issue, but the simpler you make something the harder it is to break.

Bad engineering is the bigger problem.

I can point to specific major failure points on the
VCS/2600(joystick lever, power supply),
ColecoVision(power switch)
Intellivision(directional input on the (hard-wired) controller),
5200(flex circuit in the controller),
NES(GOD-DAMN ZIF CONNECTOR!),
FamiCom Disk System(drive belt),
GameBoy(LCD connector),
Playstation(CD-ROM tracking mechanism),
Playstation 2(DVD drive),
XBox(internal power supply)
Dreamcast(GD-ROM drive spindle motor),
XBox 360(GPU).


The 2600 power supply and controllers can be replaced easily, as can the 5200 controllers. A user-accessible fuse on the power brick would've been nice.

I am unsure about repair costs inmost cases.
I'm told that Atari would fix 5200 controllers for free, and Nintendo would fix FDSes for free.
I know Sony would fix PS2 drives for free after they got sued, and MS will fix the 360 for free.

The CV and PS1 are directly traceable to the manufacturers being cheapskates.

The DC is notable as it only began occurring after Sega dropped support

All are the results of bad design, component choice, or material choice.

And it's pretty even across time, with the spike near the beginning. All 3 successors to the 2600 have common failure points. That's almost an entire generation of defective hardware(Hooray for the Vectrex!).

Long-term, systems with moving parts SHOULD be more failure-prone than systems without them.
All other things being equal, anything that has a cooling fan or disk drive should fail before anything that doesn't.

As an aside though, the better question might be why consoles fail in the first place. I'm sure that the 360's staggering failure rate can be attributed at least partly to stupid kinds who don't know how to place the damn thing properly. Really, it overheated when you stuck it between your TV and the wall? Honestly.

As I said, it's usually attributable to bad engineering.


The 360's failure rate is due to a rushed release that did not properly test it, as well as trying to make it as small as possible.
The cooling system on the early models is fundamentally flawed and grossly inadequate to the challenging task at hand.
More recent revisions of the 360 are far more reliable, both because the cooling system has been significantly redesigned and because the chipset consumes a lot less power.

BTW, most 360 failures I personally know of were in open air. Including mine.

[sweener2001]

the 360 runs pre-slim were terrible for cooling. the gpu is underneath the dvd drive, and given a much smaller heatsink. and that drive is pretty much right on top of it. and the x-clamps.

you won't hear them say their actually sorry, though. being first out the gate really paid off for them this gen.

thermal expansion wasn't counted on, either. my first one was sent in and repaired, modded, penny-fixed, banned, and donated to a friend. my current, even older 360 had to be reflowed by a nice man who does this on the side. it had already had the official x-clamp fix done by MS, and it ringed again, which allowed me to pick it up for 40 bucks. another 40 to reflow it after it ringed on me, and it's still a pretty good deal. but i wish i had a slim model.

[badinsults]

The Xbox 360 problems arise from poor solder work. Essentially, the chips heat up and the pins come loose. I know people who have fixed the problem by resoldering the GPU/CPU chips back on manually.

[magitek369]

Long-term, systems with moving parts SHOULD be more failure-prone than systems without them.
All other things being equal, anything that has a cooling fan or disk drive should fail before anything that doesn't.

That's more or less what I was trying to say. Thanks.

[franpa]

The Xbox 360 problems arise from poor solder work. Essentially, the chips heat up and the pins come loose. I know people who have fixed the problem by resoldering the GPU/CPU chips back on manually.

I thought it was mostly because they used a plastic mount for the optical drive rather then a metal one. The plastic mount would melt/flex from excessive heat.

[badinsults]

The Xbox 360 problems arise from poor solder work. Essentially, the chips heat up and the pins come loose. I know people who have fixed the problem by resoldering the GPU/CPU chips back on manually.

I thought it was mostly because they used a plastic mount for the optical drive rather then a metal one. The plastic mount would melt/flex from excessive heat.

Like I said, I know people who have fixed their RROD by resoldering the chips. I have never heard of a problem with the optical drive.

[odditude]

VCS/2600(joystick lever, power supply)

Atari 400/800 computers came with the same joysticks; at least three of them died on me.

NES(GOD-DAMN ZIF CONNECTOR!)

Remember tricks like sliding the cartridge as far forward as it would go before popping the tray down? Mine never failed, but I also didn't get it til '91.

Playstation(CD-ROM tracking mechanism)

I was one of many who had to run my original PSX upside-down to compensate.

Playstation 2(DVD drive)

Haven't had any issues with my PS2 (second revision, i believe), although my girlfriend's launch-day model no longer reads DVD-Video.

Not consoles per se, but they had cartridge slots so I'm adding them:
Atari 400 (membrane keyboard from hell)
Atari 130XE (keyboard)

[I.S.T.]

My second PS2 just outright stopped reading discs a few months ago. My third one randomly has problems with DVD-Video discs, but plays games fine.

[Gonzo]

My first PS2 played dvd's, ps1 and ps2 games fine at first. Eventually (about 2 years later) it began to have trouble reading certain ps1 games(ff7 and ff9 if I remember correctly) until it reached a point where it wouldn't recognise ps1 games at all. Before it reached this point, it started having trouble reading certain ps2 games (Legacy of Kain: Defiance for instance). I finally threw it away because it made a god awful grinding noise, and it chewed my copies of Defiance, Blood omen and my Iron Maiden Fear of the dark album.

I was using it primarily as a dvd player, someone once told me that that would wear the laser out faster because it has to constantly read a dvd in comparison to only reading a game when it needs to load something. I have no idea if this is true or not but I never used a dvd in my next ps2 and it still runs all my games fine(4 years later).

Mind you, my second ps2 is a ps2 slim and my first ps2 was the original ps2, so it could just be that the slim is a better design.

[sweener2001]

The Xbox 360 problems arise from poor solder work. Essentially, the chips heat up and the pins come loose. I know people who have fixed the problem by resoldering the GPU/CPU chips back on manually.

I thought it was mostly because they used a plastic mount for the optical drive rather then a metal one. The plastic mount would melt/flex from excessive heat.

Like I said, I know people who have fixed their RROD by resoldering the chips. I have never heard of a problem with the optical drive.

drive replacement isn't uncommon, just not as common. my samsung drive is on its way. the whole 360 thing boils down to poor heat management. sub-par soldering is just icing on the cake.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Long-term, systems with moving parts SHOULD be more failure-prone than systems without them.
All other things being equal, anything that has a cooling fan or disk drive should fail before anything that doesn't.

That's more or less what I was trying to say. Thanks.

But as we've seen, what SHOULD happen isn't what IS happening.

I've seen nothing to indicate that more modern systems are any more or less reliable than older ones.

Playstation(CD-ROM tracking mechanism)

I was one of many who had to run my original PSX upside-down to compensate.

My PS1 had an unconventional failure. I think it's an issue on the power board.
It'll run fine for maybe a half-hour, then the screen flashes white and it resets.

I was using it primarily as a dvd player, someone once told me that that would wear the laser out faster because it has to constantly read a dvd in comparison to only reading a game when it needs to load something. I have no idea if this is true or not but I never used a dvd in my next ps2 and it still runs all my games fine(4 years later).

The conventional wisdom is wrong. Random access is actually HARDER on the drive.

You can also find people saying you shouldn't stick CDs in it, shouldn't use dual-layer disks, that it's burning out the laser by over-amping it to compensate for poor focus, and a slew of other absurdities.

That said, the PS2 is a horrible DVD player anyways.

[Gonzo]

The conventional wisdom is wrong. Random access is actually HARDER on the drive.

hmm, interesting.

That said, the PS2 is a horrible DVD player anyways.

Damn straight.

[magitek369]

But as we've seen, what SHOULD happen isn't what IS happening.

I've seen nothing to indicate that more modern systems are any more or less reliable than older ones.

It should also just be a simple matter of comparing statistics, but I've yet to find anything more solid than the above picture, which is hardly scientific.

[Gil_Hamilton]

But as we've seen, what SHOULD happen isn't what IS happening.

I've seen nothing to indicate that more modern systems are any more or less reliable than older ones.

It should also just be a simple matter of comparing statistics, but I've yet to find anything more solid than the above picture, which is hardly scientific.

No one releases official failure rates. It's bad publicity to admit to it.

[adventure_of_link]

That said, the PS2 is a horrible DVD player anyways.

Damn straight.

Agreed.

[Sessh]

Fortunately, I've had good fortune with Playstations. My first PS1 lasted probably four years before it wouldn't play games properly. It would play them, but the screen would be garbled in random places. That happened while playing Twisted Metal 2. The original PS2 I had needed to be repaired after three years or so though I got Sony to fix it for free. It just gave up while playing NHL '02 I think. It lasted another two years before it wouldn't play games longer than a half hour or so before it started skipping and freezing (probably the diode wearing out?). I still have the first slim PS2 though it is showing signs of breaking down a little. It skips from time to time during FMV playback, but it's nothing major at the moment and I have a new one waiting in the wings.

I agree that the PS2 is a crappy DVD player. It will always skip after some time and the unit gets extremely hot. I don't play DVD video unless it comes with a game, FFXII Collector's Edition for example. I don't know for a fact that it wears it out faster, but I'd always assumed that was the case considering the temperature and that it seemed to struggle with it. I always have a little fan blowing on it when I play games now which keeps the heat down some.

As for the preferences for playing NES, SNES and other console games, I don't mind that much about playing it on the computer as opposed to in a real console on a TV. Sure, it would be nice, but I am much more confident using ZSNES, Kega, Nestopia or whatever on my computer. The only time I wish it was on the TV instead is for two player games. If emulators is all I have to play this stuff on in X years, that's fine. I can keep the software safely on a data DVD-R and use it anytime I want. It would be cool though if Nintendo produced even 100 NES and SNES consoles a year. They'd all sell fast, I imagine, but I know that would never happen. At this point, I'm just happy I can play some of these games at all. It would be nice if everything worked 100% correctly and hopefully, that will happen at some point, but it's better than nothing at all. Personally, I would be wary of buying a used console especially if it was something like a Saturn or Sega CD. Who knows how they or any of these consoles were handled or how much life is left in them at this point? It just seems, I don't know, "safer" to just play them this way since I know I can rely on a computer and an emulator to handle the job and the emulator won't break or stop working nor will the games. I would be much more inclined to buy them brand new, but that's not an option.

[magitek369]

No one releases official failure rates. It's bad publicity to admit to it.

Isn't that what consumer reviews are for?

[Gil_Hamilton]

No one releases official failure rates. It's bad publicity to admit to it.

Isn't that what consumer reviews are for?

No one's making a statistically significant long-term study, or even short-term study.

We're generally left to piece it together from internet bitching.

[Agozer]

I've never had any problems with my PS2 when used as a DVD player. Still, it's a fairly bare bones DVD player. My original fat PS2 eventually had to go because the laser was probably so worn out (booting DVD media took forever, CDs were fine) and was replaced with a chipped Slim.

[franpa]

My fat PS2 bought in 2004 still plays DVD's perfectly fine, same with PS1 and PS2 games. It's the controllers crappy shoulder buttons that break so easily for me. L2 and R2 have the little plastic stopper thing snap so you can push the buttons in too far at an angle. I've had 4 official controllers and they've all broken, my 3rd party controllers however are fine.

[Rashidi]

(official) controller

i curious wether exploding (unofficial) PS3 controller may resulted from bad engineering?
though, since it only sony side story, since i still haven't found evident that sony might telling the truth, i doubt the claim