ZSNES: Why Only GDI and DirectDraw?

nerdl · Post by **nerdl** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:49 am

DirectDraw sucks because it cannot display anything without blurriness - or at least I've never found a way to stop, so tell me if you know a way.

I'm hard-pressed to think of any other relatively modern emulator that doesn't offer an OpenGL mode, which makes resizing fast and doesn't force blurring.

I'd love to use ZSNES rather than SNES9x because SNES9x has always been too buggy for me - but I can't get past the blur.

nintendo_nerd · Post by **nintendo_nerd** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:16 am

SnesGT uses Directdraw (and is infinitely more accurate than Zsnes will be until 2.0) and doesn't force blurry images in Vista/7.

Killa B · Post by **Killa B** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:44 am

nintendo_nerd wrote:(and is infinitely more accurate than Zsnes will be until 2.0)

I'm interested in seeing a mathematical proof of this statement.

kode54 · Post by **kode54** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:13 am

nintendo_nerd wrote:SnesGT uses Directdraw (and is infinitely more accurate than Zsnes will be until 2.0) and doesn't force blurry images in Vista/7.

That's because Vista/7 drivers for ATI and nVidia force unfiltered scaling with DirectDraw, unlike their XP drivers.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:52 am

What's wrong with ZSNES' DR modes?

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:58 am

ZSNES does not use GDI.

nintendo_nerd · Post by **nintendo_nerd** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:46 am

Killa B wrote:
nintendo_nerd wrote:(and is infinitely more accurate than Zsnes will be until 2.0)
I'm interested in seeing a mathematical proof of this statement.

I was using hyperbole, but whatever. There's enough proof it's more accurate, especially when it comes to spc700 emulation (it's not no. 1 in accuracy like Bsnes, but it still sounds better than Zsnes or Snes9x). As far as I'm concerned Snes9x is as good as dead.

Post by **grinvader** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:47 am

nerdl wrote:ZSNES: Why Only GDI and DirectDraw?

You go back in time and code up a direct3d integration for a DOS application, mmmkay ?

Thought so.

Post by **lordmissus** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:10 pm

nintendo_nerd wrote:SnesGT uses Directdraw (and is infinitely more accurate than Zsnes will be until 2.0) and doesn't force blurry images in Vista/7.

Interesting bug in bsnes (or perhaps DirectDraw, or both, not sure) --> lock the screen (Super Key + L) then unlock the screen, blurring gone. This is on Windows 7 Release Candidate, and I'm not sure if it applies generally or just for me (vpu drivers and whatnot).

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:59 pm

Interesting bug in bsnes (or perhaps DirectDraw, or both, not sure) --> lock the screen (Super Key + L) then unlock the screen, blurring gone.

Wrong forum on the wrong domain, but :P
Yeah, I have to completely re-initialize Direct3D from scratch when you lock the screen and then unlock it. D3D completely goes to hell otherwise.
I'll check, maybe I forgot to call the SetMagFilter thing after that.

There's enough proof it's more accurate, especially when it comes to spc700 emulation

ZSNES passes a lot of my tests that SNESGT doesn't, and vice versa*. It's best that you just play the games you want. If one runs those games better, use it. ZSNES is more impressive in that it's literally twice as fast while being roughly as compatible. But you know how that goes: if it runs full speed, it doesn't matter at all. If it runs 1fps less on your system, then that emulator is shit.

* ZSNES is much better about all the edge cases anomie, TRAC, Overload and myself have discovered: the odd scroll register behavior, OAM address reset, etc and special chip / peripheral support, while SNESGT is better at S-CPU opcode timing, BS-X support, etc and has a modern UI.

I don't think SNESGT will supplant Snes9X, at least not until it goes open source and appears on OS X and Linux. But yeah, Snes9X needs a new core developer, or it's in real trouble, long-term.

nintendo_nerd · Post by **nintendo_nerd** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:12 pm

Right, and if SnesGT is ever open source, programmers will be able to port if to other platforms such as the Wii/gamecube; Snes9x is as good as dead in my book.

Post by **lordmissus** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:26 am

byuu wrote:Yeah, I have to completely re-initialize Direct3D from scratch when you lock the screen and then unlock it. D3D completely goes to hell otherwise.
I'll check, maybe I forgot to call the SetMagFilter thing after that.

Hmm, I'd much rather you didn't fix that bug actually

It's how I get rid of that horrible blurring (and I don't get fullspeed on the other video drivers, not if I want to use the NTSC filter that is).

But you own bsnes, so it's your call.

kode54 · Post by **kode54** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:45 am

lordmister wrote:
byuu wrote:Yeah, I have to completely re-initialize Direct3D from scratch when you lock the screen and then unlock it. D3D completely goes to hell otherwise.
I'll check, maybe I forgot to call the SetMagFilter thing after that.
Hmm, I'd much rather you didn't fix that bug actually
It's how I get rid of that horrible blurring (and I don't get fullspeed on the other video drivers, not if I want to use the NTSC filter that is).

But you own bsnes, so it's your call.

You know you can turn off the blurring, right? Settings -> Video Filter -> Point.

Post by **lordmissus** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:34 am

Yeah I know. But when I've tried that on bsnes using DirectDraw, it remains blurred regardless.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:12 am

Oh, OpenGL and D3D both allow turning it off via point. DirectDraw should never be blurred to begin with on Win 7 ...

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:44 am

Unless your using early Windows 7 drivers, there should be no blur like Byuu said.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:05 am

Some drivers still do auto-blurring... depends on your video card manufacturer.

AFAIK, NVidia does auto-blurring for DDraw if you let it handle resolutions scaling instead of your monitor.

Really, this extended discussion belongs elsewhere.

Post by **lordmissus** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:21 pm

I must have one of those special drivers that do auto-blurring ...
(ATI Radeon X600 256MB Hyper Memory, Windows 7 default drivers)

EDIT: Uhh, just went on bsnes again (after booting up machine from power-off), no blur. Wow, I just kind of assumed "ok, dd = blur". Perhaps I wasn't paying attention, went on Point, locked the screen (I do this alot) then unlocked the screen, it wasn't a bug, just me having turned off linear filtering... linear filtering doesn't even work now anyway.

Perhaps my drivers were updated? (I leave ms auto-update turned on)

Delete the last few posts, I'm an idiot.

mudlord · Post by **mudlord** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:27 pm

grinvader wrote:
nerdl wrote:ZSNES: Why Only GDI and DirectDraw?
You go back in time and code up a direct3d integration for a DOS application, mmmkay ?

Thought so.

That actually sounds like fun.....

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:39 pm

lordmister wrote:linear filtering doesn't even work now anyway.

DirectDraw doesn't give you any choice in min/mag filters. You should really only be using it if it's faster than the other drivers.

Post by **lordmissus** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:54 pm

byuu wrote:
lordmister wrote:linear filtering doesn't even work now anyway.
DirectDraw doesn't give you any choice in min/mag filters. You should really only be using it if it's faster than the other drivers.

I never got fullspeed before in other video drivers.
EDIT:
Just tested on v048 wip1, QtImage, OpenGL and GDI are as slow as snails, but Direct3d gets fullspeed now aswell (*with* the Ntsc filter enabled), in addition to DirectDraw (with Ntsc enabled) as before. Both drivers slow down mementarily on occasions (with Ntsc filter, not so without), but it seems more so on the D3D drivers. DD still seems faster to me so that's what I'll continue to use while I'm not in need of linear filtering, and frankly, I don't know why you don't leave DD as the default driver, seeing as how it is faster.

My system can now run bsnes with the Ntsc filter enabled on otherwise default settings, so I'm happy. I should note that I disable audio sync and enable video sync; vsync works in good speed like this (and still prevetns tearing of course), and audio still seems to be in sync, whereas with both enabled bsnes doesn't get fullspeed, and with only audio sync enabled... well, tearing.

Anyway let's stop discussing this, you have your own board now

We shouldn't be plaguing a thread about ZSNES especially.